Is This Fair?
The Discussion Centre: CU Members Section: Is This Fair?
In the last while the CU has meted out two suspensions that I have heard about.
Case #1
The facts as reported to an open meeting of the combine and backed up by documented evidence went like this: the member stopped his clock, opened it, called around after the race to find out the winning times, reset his clock to 15 minutes ahead of the winning time, clocked five counter marks in 15 seconds, reset the clock to the correct time, and restarted it. He than took it to the club house and claimed that he had actually got the birds at that time. When the combine race secretary investigated the incident and proved what had happened, the member tried to blame a family member (young child) for accidently opening the clock. He later admitted that he had cheated. When his application for reinstatement to his combine came up, he sent representatives from his club to knowingly lie on his behalf with the old version of the story about a child accidently opening his clock.
For this transgression the CU gave him a one year suspension.
Case number 2.
Acting completely in good faith, and to help out the sport and promote the annual CU convention, a member agreed to handle OOA convention birds at great personal inconvienance and some personal expense. One of the birds was lost two weeks before the race and returned several days after the race. As a consequence, the bird was not sold in the convention race auction. Several months slipped by and the flyer gets around to mentioning to the breeder of the bird that it is still in his loft. The breeder demands $100 for the bird. The flyer is not the least bit interested in the bird and has no intention of paying anything for it. The breeder threatens the flyer with a law suite and criminal charges and complains to the CU. The CU rules the bird is a "stray". The breeder sends a representative to the flyers loft to retrieve the bird. The flyer, worried about the threatened law suite and criminal charges asks the breeder's representative to sign a release on the bird. The representative refuses to sign the release so the flyer refuses to release the bird. The CU suspends the flyer for one year, the same penalty as the cheater in the previous case.
There are five fundemental principles in a civil society. Goodness, Justice, Equality, Honesty and Freedom. How many of these principles has this disparity in penalty violated. Is this how the CU BOD views fairness & justice?
How anxious is any club ever going to be in the future to host a convention race if this is how the handlers can expect to be treated?
I can not comment on the first, due to me not being in office at the time. I believe he should have been suspended for life...but like I said, I was not there...
Second...*if* the birds would have been transfered in the first place...there would be no issue right now..!!!!! The sole resposibility falls on the Oshawa club.
And yet it is Ev that is paying the price. I believe that the President and his court lurck on the AC site, so I will post further there.
Thanks Mike. you stated it better than i ever could.
I did not know in the first place that all the birds must be transferred to the club, and never knew that an entered bird was a stray under cu rules, sorry to say this is not the only stray around, another problem i have is this, why was one loft transferred month after the race was held no questions asked, when i did try to transfer i was refused, did you know that Rob? they became strays a month or so later.
Thanks for the opportunity to speak to you,
Evert
To Evert. I am sorry for what I said but my understanding came from the posts which were confusing. I'm sorry Evert truely.
To Mike. The fist guy in your post above was in fact under an ancient but "UNWRITTEN" yet widely accepted International rule of pigeon flying, not a CU rule. YOU CHEAT AND ARE COUGHT AND PROVEN CATEGORICALLY GUILTY, YOU'RE OUT FOR LIFE. NO QUESTIONS ASKED.
Ev...at the last convention in Oshawa, all of the birds were indeed transfered to the club. Not trying to be hard on you, but if it was done in the past, why was it not done this time around..?? But I guess that is besides the point. The point is, that they were not transferred this time around. If there are indeed other strays around, then they are definitely not eligable to race and if the birds are not transferred over, then they too are not in compliance with our rules. Please forward names so that we can expedite their suspensions. Rules are rules, and if it applies to Evert, then it applies to everyone else.
Your second question is not clear to me. Are you saying that one loft (say ABC loft) transferred their birds without any problems, and you could not. I think you were refusal was due to the unsigned ownership card..?? The cards have to be signed by the original owner..?? Does that answer your question Ev..??
Thanks also for this oppurtunity to talk to you, as to try and clear this matter up, so that it may not happen again.
Rob
Yes Rob. You are exactly right, One loft send in all his transfers,and without signed transfers , and every one was registered to his name, I will not send you any names,as i am only concerned with my own loft and birds, but know for a fact they exist.
It is for me to know and for you to find out, but i am not a squiler on any body else.
It is absolutely my right to have a receipt for the bird, then it is not me in the wrong to deserve suspension, but the people who suspend me.
Please see the light.
Thanks. Ev.Vierhout
I do Ev...but my hands are tied. A vote was cast and decided upon by the majority of the Directors.
I do not understand how transfers could have been done without signed ownership cards, but I did not transfer the birds, so find it hard to answer the question.
Did the Oshawa Club illegally auction off the winners? Did the CU Ladies Auxillary and the Oshawa Club take money on the selling of strays or stolen pigeons?
Hi Fellows.
Went to ship out tonight, of course i cannot ship mine.
Excelent post Tom, yes we did,looking at it this way.
But hopefully they will turn their ill conceived decision for the better, as my patience is running very thin.
Thanks for all your excellent comments.
Ev.
I never realised Ev had been chopped! Sorry about that Ev. Really am and I feel for you!
I personally have never ever - nor will (except for two / three reason) - vote or support a disfellowship, whether I like them or not.
The reasons for would be Cheating and cruelity.
I have in my club 3 I can't stand, won't talk to etc. . but will and do help as they have the same rights and priveledges as any other paid up member - regardless whether they pull their wieght or even help! Ev may be able to send as trainers.
But reading between the lines I have a gut feeling that when Ev - He came here for example - to stirr the pot he has put a few noses out of joint. Now that in it's self by no means banishment to the scully, but what goes round comes round and IF one does spout unsavouries then his home must Obviously be squeaky clean.
There must be an 'Appeal Proceedjor' that means he can still fly pending the out come..? !
I have have last year three time my chequer 'Not Recieved' from a National club. and again this season. Will have to take it other oersonally again in front of witnesses to pay1 Wonder why .. Why!!!! Because I bloody well upset them and put noses out of joints... means I have to be Ultra careful as a Default in one club means Banned from EVERY Club. Yeah I know you find it hard to believe I upset any one. Biut I have honestly, Just the once or twice like lol.
Roly it is terrible Ev could not fly, hopefully he will get back flying next week. On to some brighter news, the first race is over, and it was a fast one, strike off at 2 o'clock to decide the winner. Jim
Hi Jim
Post your speeds later tonight if you don't mind. I will wait to later tonight to give all a chance to get to there clubs. Some don't like to know in advance of strike off.
Hi Mike
Our winning speed in our club was 1648.5405. It was a very fast race. How did you make out in the north. Thanks Jim
Hi Jim. Evan Nelson won both races. 1717 in the Regular and 1566 in the B release.
On a More sombre note ... Ev did you get what you set out to acheive? Was the, and are the consequences worthwhile?
Have you won new followers? Did the gates burst open and become flooded with a massive gush of new and helpful supporters?
Which is better ... inside the tent spitting out .. or outside spitting in?
How many NEW people have stood up in support tpo be counted .. no Not agree with you BUT put conviction where the MOUTH IS?
Who have youy helped in real terms in the Fancy?
What have you acheived? .... Just what did you HOPE TO ACHEIVE? and above all WaS IT WORTH IT? AND JUST WHOTHE F**K CARES? and worst still....... just who will remember you TOMORROW?
Roly. What he is doing, has done, will affect a great number of people if this is not dealt with to everyones satisfaction. Who would be next?
Aparently he had birds sent to his loft for the Convention race. After the Convention and auction he had a bird come back days later. As did others. All he wanted was a signed paper to say the person who picked up the bird said it was in good health etc,. At the time, the first postings by Ev I thought he just kept the bird to breed from or whatever. Maybe he did. Dont matter. Transfer of ownership apparently is the root cause. You send to a young bird one loft or many lofts special then who owns the bird actually unless transfer papers are signed? I am not sure of what was the root cause here but with the next convention race this year it could cause some serious problems.
He did stand up for what he thought is right. Dont you? Doubt if he is doing a sympathy thing.
Sure he likes to 'stir the pot' Dont you?
Roly, it is not what he has done or said to any great degree but his situation may happen again. He is in fact giving advanced warning. "Do what I did, one year suspension".
Roly. I do not know Ev or any one else who posts on here.
"How many NEW people have stood up in support tpo be counted .. no Not agree with you BUT put conviction where the MOUTH IS?
Who have youy helped in real terms in the Fancy?
What have you acheived? .... Just what did you HOPE TO ACHEIVE? and above all WaS IT WORTH IT? AND JUST WHOTHE F**K CARES? and worst still....... just who will remember you TOMORROW? "
The quote above. Apply it to yourself and answer?
Hi All;Well first 2 races are over in our club we won the A race 1700 roughly and Tony Alves won the B race around 1700 roughly as we didnt figure it out at the club.
Agree Spruggy.
But that wasn't / isn't the issue nor is it the point I was referring to!
Yes I do always stand up to be counted etc.etc. etc. to all. Like I say I have - infact going quite a trip to - day actually to pay a Secretary a visit as My cheque has been cashed .... Will I be a defaulter? he hopes. Why. well I did a Ev lol and like I say EVERY action has a re - action whether we want it or not .. and may well not be the one we wanted or perceived we 'd get lol. But you will get one even if it's stone wall silence.
So Simply I was ASKING is and was it worth it?
Sorry HAS NOT been cashed . same every year. last year sent three, then had to go personally again .... 'Sorry I haven't recieved it .. so couldn't cash it' ........!!!! Defaulter !!!!!
Evert has lots of support from many CU members. For his work ethic and also for this problem of which he has been suspended. Is it worth it? Only he can answer that question. But if all had been done to me as is done to Evert......I don't see that he did enything wrong....so of course it is worth it !
If his suspention is NOT overturned - it will be a large injustice to him and CU rulings in general.
Good flying David,Good to see you Eskimos finally getting started, We just finished our OB season yesterday with a 500, got second place....got beat by .28 seconds, 2nd year in a row in the 500! Good luck next week ,look forward to seeing you in June! Sarmy
Hi Sarmy: Congratulations to you also.Do you still have my phone number.Give me a call when you get up here.Looking forward to see you again,
Roly and all
Is it worth the hassle, time will tell if not for me then maybe in the future for someone else.
Public opinion counts very much, our premier fond this out this week, when they suggested to tax all restaurant meals under$4.00, the public outcry made him think twice and changed his tune quickly.
It is like this, if their rep. reports back to them
"He refused to return the bird unless i signed for it", or he says "he wanted to give me the bird, but i would not sign a receipt for it",can be different interpertated, but that is all i can say on the advice of my counsel we hope this will work out this week for the better
O. K that solve and Answered in regards the Suspendion .. Now for the part of Goading / stirring the pot and having a go at the C.U.?
Sure I do likewise very mush so over here.... but!
So here's how we find out how old our Roly really is?
Over the weekend I graded (on-line) some 24 stock birds for a man who went to great lengths to convince me that they were genuine old WEGGE'S originally brought over from England.
They certainly have the eyes to be! They are fabulous but, it takes a hell of a breeder to maintain a family for as long as it's been since the Wegge's flew our skies.
He claims they are still competitive also????????????????
Well back. Agree with the short breath eye guru. The old line wegges are certainly not here after 95 years. Even if the expert breeder kept them pure his heirs would not have. Sounds like a carbon copy in the wegge wood pile to me. Or maybe a frog runner with piles of the mouth. Lets race. Bye BillyT
Billy, he's from Houston??????? Very True I Swear.
Well there you go mucker, if it bleeds it's a yank lol
If it breeds it's a lie ... sorry Bonb I personally don#t give a shit what or how ......... it bull shit!
Read a very interested article via Ad..... as I have posted before.........You are brainndead if you are gullible to believe such crap!! Hi arsehole ....... s4end me the money next time and I will give you credence in a 'Bitr Of Paper' brain dead dip shit.... go and suck an Egg..... you arew a first class W***k**r numsumskull'
Like the great ****** . his SON laughed and said EVEN HE hasn't any bred from his GFATHETR .... BUT plonkerS in the U.S.A. Have pedigrees that put him to shame.. Go on arseholes spend your money ON DREAMS..... WHat Plonkers there are lol..... a sick - Indeed very sick plonketrs there are about THAT WANNA BELIVE ........ And the band believed it ., if you like ....... OR PAY YOUR MONEY LO;L.
NO I have a brainb - small though it is I grant you ... but even a HALF brain of 60 years ago KNOWS BEYTTER ........ WELL that is except plonkers with more money than sense lol.
You know I went - as previous;ly posted - to a TOP stud thaty said to me ' ******** Wel there ain't any as such oin the country .......... But IF you want me to find some COME BADK on Thurs day' lol and all had a good laugh . There ain't none... never was mnore likely since BUSSUARTS LOL and ........ 3well that explains it .......
WELL I nissed as a pewt and EVEMN I won't be confused with suck complete utter crap!! Nor do I want to be lol grow up act sharp and stop chucking your money away on ......... SOMER ONE else's dreams twat!
ASK AD ....... love him or hate him, he speaks the truth.
Seems a WELL KNOWN fancier when his FATHER die found he had nothing or his fathers vien! Seems that though he hadn't have any (because as he says there weren't any ) that he had to GO to AMERICA TO FIND ANY!! sEEM THEY STILL A 100 rears LATER THEY STILL HAVE THEM LO!
Grow up and act sharp .... just look at the reality of time alone to realise ythat the 'OFF SPRING' would be so 'WEAK AND SPARROW LIKE' that NOTHING COULD ..... OR WOULD BE ABLE TO SURVIVE' FACT! FACT! MATEY LO.[
sORRY ABOUT THE sPELLING ..... - but i am AFTER ALL speaking with a NISSED AS ARSEHOLE reality realism and WHISKEY ENDUCED TRUTH!
iF YOU BELIEVE OTHERWISE go and get a brain And act sharp!!!!
Bobv I am surprised with you lo .... stop taking the piss from half baked nbrain dead zombies lol
To put it Bluntly 'IF YOU wanna believe ..... let ME SELL you lol..... for YOU DESERVE TO BE Took for every cent you have' lol
EWHAT plonkers .... or as the song says 'There are none so blind that WILL NOT SEE' ... WWWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHH PLONKER, HAPPY7 SPENDING LOL
.... .........!!! LOL ! LOL!!!
Roly,
I agree totally. Even if someone had maintained pure Wegges, would Wegge recognise them. I would just about guarantee that if I bought a straight line off you & didn't cross them that they would change over a 20 year period as I would feed them differently & expose them to a very different climate.
Incidentally, Maurice Delbars birds were Wegges but he crossed them & formed his own line. I have some pure Delbars but would the old master recognise them?
Jimmyoz
Doubt it . Bussuaert Started with Delbars to, end of story. Now most of the famous fanciers had a mixture off a mixture of flyers and they became 'Their Strain'.
Funnily enough I beleieve you will find it WAS the Cross that made their birds great!
I like to give credit to the breeders before me so I put the strains in the pedigrees as much as possible. But in actuality the first mating you make with the birds you get changes them to your idea rather than the original breeder's idea so in my opinion they change into your own strain quite quickly.
hI aLL ; aS FAR aS i AM CONCERNERD THE c.u OFFICE has no opinion on what the members seem to think.This as far as I am concerned is for all members to be informed as to the progress of anything discussed or voted on at any meeting ,so they can voice their opinion as to agree or diagree on the boards opinion on the posting of the boards opinion by majoritry vote by directors before it is passed by the virtual aspect of the next newsletter .before all the members have a chance to review what was presented to the board and voted upon without being pre presented to the members before or the right to vote the proprosal down.This is the right of all MEMBERS NOT THE RIGHT OF THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS .ITs time the BOARD OF THE DIRECTORS BECOME ACCOUNTABLE TO THE MEMBERSHIP>YOU CAN FOOL SOME OF THE PEOPLE SOMETIMEBe accountable to the people who elected you or vacate the office.
Hi, Dave, I have stayed out of the discussion so far because I am not actively involved anymore. I believe there is time for a change to improve the relationship of the CU Board and the membership.
What you are suggesting is not the way to do it; you ( the membership )have elected the board of directors to represent you at the board. If you feel they are not doing their job you, as a member, ( this goes for all members) has the ways and means to correct that by a change of directors. As long as they are your elected board members they are speaking for you and you have to trust their judgment to be in the best interest of the sport, not necessarily yours. If the majority of the members feel as you do there will be a change of board directors at the next
election.
What you are suggesting is going to become a chaos; you should have enough confidence in the elected board members that they make the right decisions for the sport at large. If you do not trust them to make these decisions you don't need them there.
Your day-to day business should be dealt with by the current board of directors and any recommendations for changes should be dealt with at the annual meeting and recommendations by the membership are to be made by means of a vote on certain subjects, but it is up to the board of directors to implement the recommendations suggested by the membership.
You cannot go to the membership for their approval on any proposal before a meeting. That would make it impossible for the board to operate. Once you have a board of directors you are stuck with them till the next election.
If you feel they don't do their job it is up to the membership to do something about it at the annual meeting.
Well said Marvin. Much controversy on the use of the word strain. I've beleived for a long time now, that the space between your fingers is your strain (sifter so to speak). Meaning that if I buy a pair of birds off say the Janssen bros', then the offspring are Jansens, but which ones I now use to continue the line is now my strain, as the selection would not necessarily be what they would choose.
I think in the case with the CU - elected Directors are needed BUT - the membership should recieve good minutes of the Directors meetings. We must be aware of how these Diectors think and how they vote on issues. Otherwise - how do we know who is representing the sport and us as individuals the best?
Clarence. I agree 100%. The problem is, when no one runs and the Directors continually get reappointed by acclaimation, the membership looses even that chance for input.
Here is a suggestion. I would like to hear an opinion on the following proposal from any current CU Director that visits this discussion.
Following the Annual General meeting each year, where the ballots are counted and the new board is declared, this new board holds a closed door BOD meeting to elect the President, V.P. etc and to consider any issues that had just been raised on the floor of the AGM.
Here is my request, why not simply continue with this BOD meeting immediately following the AGM. This would allow those members that are interested to remain and observe the proceedings? I believe that this would go a long way to building bridges between the BOD and the membership. In my opinion, there is no reason what-so-ever why any BOD meeting has to be held in secret. Let the membership see who the new President is going to be and who voted him or her in. Let the membership hear the debate around the suggestions they made at the AGM. Let them see who supported their idea and who did not and most importantly why. What say you, current Directors?
Hi MikeV...You have my vote on that i feel the same way no closed meeting after the annual would be nice to hear what the members have to say about who gets elected and to what post. bill butterfield
Bobo, from Houston. Post his name and I will give all the lowdown on his super accomplishments. Lets race. Bye billyt
Billy I can't give you this guy's name, but you know him very well and he knows you. 6'4" Tall, skinny and alway's taking. About 85 years young, grey hair, very distinguished looking.
Ex president of the American Steam Ship Company. And inventer of containerized shipping and all that it involves when working for that company. He now lives in Florida and is preparing to set up his new loft there to fly next year against the big boy's in spring hill.
I have been offered the chance to move over there and fly with him after I get my lungs. That could be fun?????
The last living one of the very first 50 original U.S helecopter pilots who served with the coast guard long before the Air Force or Navy even had choppers.
This same man used to hold a yearly one loft race in Houston called the Vanguard ???? which was the name of the last ship he served on. He also called the loft that same name.
He won that race one year for Tony Mallouchi? with a hen that had hung suspended in a hammock with two broken legs for 2 weeks just before the race, and was taken out of it and shipped to the race on the same day.
I clocked one of his weired creamy coloured birds in a Snow race one year and won some bucks for him. What an eye she had. I have a picture of it somewhere. And she went on to breed winners for a couple of people over here. They were known as the Da-hoolas. The name coming from the a street that he lived on in Boston. These birds are the Wegges I talked about in my earlier post. He keeps meticulous records and I tend think he could well be skilled enough to have kept them pure.
Often misunderstood by people, he is one of the most facinating and interesting men I ever met and dispite his age, his mind is sharp like a steel trap. You and I should be so lucky at that age.
I don't know his social security number but could get it if you need it. Ha ha ha ????? 
.
Ok Bobo know him, a pretty good flyer. Cant understand how he would pay good money to have a internet guru look at his pigeons eyes. Perhaps is looking for a silver bullet to catapult him into pigeon nervana as a last gasp before the grave. Not likely. But when one foot is in the grave, any mojo is better than the alternative Lets race. Bye BillyT
Billy. I've been grading his birds for the past 21 years????? and dispite my asking him not to, he often gives me the credit for much of his success. He's putting birds in the Sth African Million Dollar race this year which will be interesting to say the least. A real Gentleman. Like me, but taller.