I was just wonderring if the Winbird software will be able to incorporate the TauRis electronic clock data...for this years calculations? I see that TauRis and Unikon are the last two to be done. Any help would be appreciated.

By Evert (216.154.46.87 - 216.154.46.87) on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 02:54 pm: Edit

Hi Tom,
Just had to start up the program to check out which clocks can be downloaded direct into the computer.
We have not done this ourselves, but according to the program it can do the following clocks:
Tipes, Benzing Atis, Unicon , Taurus. It has instructions on how to do this as soon as you select a race ,
to process,and select the option for electronic clocks, you than select the clock to download.
It tells you the cable to use for different clocks too.
Make sure you download the latest version, and also the instruction manual, from:http://www.pigeon.co.za/downloads

By Tommakowecki (64.42.242.17 - 64.42.242.17) on Wednesday, December 18, 2002 - 05:00 pm: Edit

Thanks Evert. We will check it out.

By Oscar (149.99.168.77 - 149.99.168.77) on Monday, December 23, 2002 - 06:41 pm: Edit

Hey Mike it's right above this message !

By Brad (12.47.224.13 - 12.47.224.13) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 01:59 pm: Edit

Hi guys.....just getting the Winbird program ready to go and had a quick question.

The old RMS10 program gave extra bird points for distance, and number of birds in a race.

Any one know if the Winbird program can do this?

By Davidtichbourne (64.230.30.65 - 64.230.30.65) on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 09:48 pm: Edit

Is this what you mean? ...an example would be appreciated as I never used RMS10 so don't really know what your are thinking of..

Here is what an example could look like:

Race A is 100 points for the average distance

Race B is 200 points.

Race A is 50 points for 500 birds
Race B is 100 points for 700.

So race a gets 150 points extra per position
and race b gets 200 points extra per position.

-----------------------

In winbird you can create many, many different "schemes". I am no expert yet but you can create a scheme for Race A call it Race A Scheme, and a Scheme for Race B, call it Race B Scheme. You can award these points in any number of ways, but best to look at the help and print it off and try a few schemes (I like the word scenario better, but what the hey scheme is okay).

later,
Dave.

By Brad (198.208.6.35 - 198.208.6.35) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 07:16 am: Edit

Hi David....Evert answered my question for me in an e-mail. What we used to have was you would receive so many points,(say 30) for first, then descending down to 1(2nd would get 29 etc.).Then you would add 1 percent of the birds, and 1 percent of the distance.

So a bird winning a 100 mile race against 100 birds would receive 30 for winning 1 point for distance(.01 x 100), and 1 point for number of birds (.01 x 100) for a total of 32.

A bird winning a 400 mile race against 200 birds would receive 30 for winning, 4 points for distance (.01 x 400) and 2 points for number of birds (.01 x 200). Total of 36.

Very similar to what the CU does. And no, Winbird has no way to do that.

By Davidtichbourne (64.230.30.65 - 64.230.30.65) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 08:56 am: Edit

Yes it can, an easy way is to calculate your point scheme after you know how many birds are in the race, then just put in the total points alotted for each position for that race, it would only take a minute or two. I am no expert though, we hope to use winbird for the full OB and YB season this year. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this, please keep it up.

Dave.

By Eastfield (67.69.230.252 - 67.69.230.252) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 11:28 am: Edit

Brad:

The CU points are based on no . of lofts in race (not birds), e.g. 20 lofts is 20 points. There would be 20 positions eligible for points. 1=20;2=19 etc. To that you add 1/100 of the distance so if the loft flies 189 km. you would add 1.89 to the points, e.g. 20 + 1.89 = 21.89 points for 1st place. If loft distance is 196 for second place it would be 19 + 1.96=20.96 for second place etc. No. of birds are not considered in CU point calculations. RMS 10 uses a different point calculation as far as I know.

Clarence

By Evert (216.154.45.12 - 216.154.45.12) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 11:43 am: Edit

Hi All.
Not to make any claim to fame, perhaps I can answer a few of your questions on the Winbird program.
Since its inception I have worked with Mr. Stegmann, but must admit that I was the slowest student to ever try to understand the workings of the system.

Yes Dave.T there are very many possibilities in the schemes, and I do not pretend that I have mastered them all.

You as a computer worker may help us all to work on some of the existing problems.
As I told Brad, Mr.Stegmann is currently not working on the program to make further updates. He feels that it is now working
satisfactory on all the things he set out with, to do.

He recognizes that the program can be updated to suit some more individual preferences.
About Jan 15 he has asked us, including the CU. people who worked on the program, to look for a person who can do programming in Delphi, to further the development of winbird.and he will help to explain the code to use.

Perhaps an opportunity for you here David?

Now as for the schemes for bird points or loft points, I hope I am correct in stating that the points you set for a race, do NOT take the distance in consideration, (as for extra point ) when the distance becomes greater.
Yes you can eleminate the previous race scheme's name, and put on a greater points number for the next race under the same name, but doubt that you can add the previous weeks result onto this weeks result through the program.
The schemes will only accept one name for each scheme, with its selections you chose, if you chose to change the selections or points, it is a new scheme, and can not add the points from the previous week to that of this week.
So unless you keep one scheme with that name, your points can not accumulate through the season, for year end result.
Hope you can follow me here.

On the average speed scheme, you may have to re enter that scheme NEW each week, after doing the results, this way you can be sure that it will pickup the last calculated race.
Other schemes generally pick up the last race you have calculated. And adds the points automatically by clicking recalculate scheme. For now it is lunch time, please bring up the problems and I will try to answer of what I know.
Ev,Vierhout.

By Davidtichbourne (64.230.30.65 - 64.230.30.65) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 12:09 pm: Edit

Hi Ev, I will have to take a look at that, I haven't learned yet how data is accumulated across the weeks, or if an individual's distance matters or needs to be used in calculations. I can see from my limited playing with the program that all schemes need to be independant from one another, my goodness it would be a mess otherwise. Also individual races results don't hold point data, they are just race results, but I don't see why several schemes can't be applied to race results in sequence to apply different point systems to the same data...... gotta run! Will pick this up later.

Dave.

By Brad (198.208.6.35 - 198.208.6.35) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 12:10 pm: Edit

Clarence....I realize that the CU uses a different calculation. I've actually created a spreadsheet to take a race result text file and calculate CU awards points. The point I was trying to make was that it was similiar in that it wasn't just straight finishing position.

Sorry for any confusion to anyone.

By Tommakowecki (64.42.242.32 - 64.42.242.32) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 12:21 pm: Edit

Evert; From what you said about Mr. Stegmann being satisfied with the program...does this mean that the Tauris E clocks are now incorporated in the program OR it is done to this point and thats ALL ?

By Evert (216.154.45.82 - 216.154.45.82) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 01:54 pm: Edit

Hi Tom.
You asked the same question a while back, and i told you then, it is supose to work. i will e.mail you the instructions, if you will you can download them also yourself. from the webside given by the CU.
Ev.

By Tommakowecki (64.42.242.42 - 64.42.242.42) on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 03:16 pm: Edit

Thanks Evert; I read on the WinBird info that TRauris was still to come.....hadn't realized that - that info was not upto date. I will see what I can figure out on my own. If I still need help I shall ask you. Thanks again.

By Tonyalves (64.231.38.28 - 64.231.38.28) on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 09:04 pm: Edit

Hi there everyone.
Lately I have been discussing with freind's how prize systems are awarded in Canada and other places in the world. It seems Holland/Belguim/Germany (etc.) are using differant systems than in Canada (as an Example).
I personally believe there is much improvement to be had right here in the so-called biggest "Up North" racing pigeon combine in Canada.
Has anyone ever considered Co-Efficent system? Apperantly it seems to work by calculating the amout of bird's clocked in the prizes,---- eg. 20% of bird's entered in a race considered a prize. Versus the amount of bird's shipped by an individual loft.
For example a fancier who ships 4 bird's and clocks 3 out of the 4 in the top 200 positions in a 1000 bird race has clocked 75% of his entrys as a prize.
On the other hand a fancier who ships 20 bird's to the same race and clocks 10 bird's in the top 200 has actually clocked only 50% of his entrys as a prize.
Therfore the fancier who shipped 4 bird's flew a better race than the fancier who shipped 20.
Is this not the best and fairest system to have small loft's fly at an equal level as the big shippers?
Everyones input and ideas would be of great interest to myself and many other fanciers.

By Davebooth (66.185.85.73 - 66.185.85.73) on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 09:21 pm: Edit

Hi Tony:Well you already know my opinion on that fact,I am for open clocking and the co-efficent system.Everyone has the right to be able to clock true results and if you get beat then improve your system or pigeons.

By Marvin (64.21.209.192 - 64.21.209.192) on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 09:28 pm: Edit

Tony, in the AU it is called the UPR system and you are basically correct on how it works. There is one added feature where your pick birds also are figured in so if you pick correctly it gives a little bonus also. I think it is great and as you say if you send a lot of birds you have to also clock a lot of birds or you won't do well. The small shipper can compete for team champion against the big shipper. If they both clock 50% of their entry in the top 20% then the one that picks his 5 pick birds the best pulls a little ahead. If you want more info I can go into more detail.

By Marvin (64.21.209.192 - 64.21.209.192) on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 09:30 pm: Edit

Davebooth, I agree. In order for the UPR system to work there cannot be any clocking limits. I was typing while your message came in.

By Tonyalves (64.231.38.28 - 64.231.38.28) on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 10:05 pm: Edit

Thanks Marvin, I am totaly commited to seeing this come about, but we have to change the "Old Culture" as many, do not want any changes.
Please post as much information on this as you can as I and many other fanciers I am sure are very interested.
I have (Bill Bennie) a close freind, who occasionaly post's on here and he has been trying to get me to post my ideas. Thank's Bill.
I truelly believe if we are going to make the sport grow, then we must put everyone at an equal footing. Especially since 90% of flyers are small number keepers and therefore should have an equal chance at compeating against the larger lofts.
P.S. speaking on "The Betterment" of the sport.
Thanks again, Tony.

By Eastfield (67.69.229.65 - 67.69.229.65) on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 10:05 pm: Edit

You can find all the details on the UPR on the "In the loft" site.

By David (216.208.56.6 - 216.208.56.6) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 04:31 am: Edit

hello all.do agree and do understand it just not sure if its the right thing to do.lets say we have 50 lofts that are small team flyers. out of these fifty lofts theres 5 top flyers that this would be good for. so that leaves 45 lofts that would never make a race sheet with no clocking limit.just not sure if this would be better for our combine or not.mind you most others have done it and survied.i will make it easy when a vote is put on the floor i will vote what my club wants, thats simple.

By Louis (216.209.18.157 - 216.209.18.157) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 06:53 am: Edit

Dave, the Orillia club did it one year, and no one dominated the race sheet on any given weekend. This during the times when Bob Moody was doing his great flying. Some still had the mentality though, "I won the race (1st place) but didn't win the most points, that's wrong". That's the beauty of it. It nullifies location, and awards someone that can manage to get his/her team home in good time. In the vast area we fly in, this is the most important factor that should have been concidered years ago! It is this very system, that once people have settled into, would improve the quality of racing, and spirit of the sport since it does not honour simply the first place position. Change that mentality, and were off to the races so to speak.
With very little effort, another result can be posted that is similar (or exactly) as the current one. Therefore one could see how they did overall, and also how they did in a limited result.
I think, myself, that your 5 top flyers of 50 lofts cleaning house is a worry more than a reality, and that it is one (con) to the many (pros) that this system has.
Pros:
1- Nominating birds make one study form more.
2- Sending less birds becomes an advantage, thus it reduces this notion that we must have this huge team to compete (the bylaw problem)
3- location is less a factor in the overall result, therefore complaints of wind, bodies of water, drag, etc. are greatly reduced.
4- If flyers start sending less birds because it's to their advantage, then there, in turn, becomes more room in the baskets which makes for better conditions for the birds.

What I'm saying is that I'm all for it!

By Louis (216.209.18.157 - 216.209.18.157) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 06:57 am: Edit

oh I missed a good one:
5- Open clocking in this system will produce a truer reading of the consistent bird that deserves to be recognized for it's achievements.

By Roly (62.253.32.7 - 62.253.32.7) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 07:42 am: Edit

Louis I niether agree nor disagree with the whole of your good post above. Deffinate not enough either way to comment that's fer sure.
However, one little point you make - twice - I feel is not a reality in any way shape or form, but a personal belief. Or at least boils down to OTHERS personal believe.
I refer to of course your views on 'Positional advantage'!
If one agrees or not is irrelevant also. Becuase the simple thing is whether one believes there is such thing as 'Positional advantage'! this wouldn't change his mind, nor elievate it! In the first place, if one does believe, then that will do absolutely nothing in my mind to alter or change that scenario. If one doesn't ... well then it doesn't apply any way!
Well that's how I see it, my thoughts only.

By Peterl (216.209.146.158 - 216.209.146.158) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 08:12 am: Edit

I think the system is a good one and there is a rumour that the Muskoka club will be using it this year.Of course it will only apply at the club level.Indeed the year Orillia tried it the owner of the winning bird of the day was often upset:I won the race but I didn't win the most points.The first place mentality is hard to overcome ie. the second place bird is the first loser.........

By Eastfield (65.95.23.163 - 65.95.23.163) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 08:33 am: Edit

This is the oldest problem there is among most flyers. They seem to think numero uno is the most important position. I'd rather have 2,3,4,5 out of 4 birds sent than 1st out of 10 sent and no others in the 1st 10 or 20 %.
Above example is an indication of the best loft, not earning a 1st position. For the same reason I believe the average speed is a farce; it does not indicate the best loft. One only needs one good bird in the loft; the rest can be duds. As long as one competes weekly and not miss a race and that one bird is clocked in good time one can get the average speed award. The rest of the birds in the loft don't count and don't even need to be clocked, good or bad.

By Tommakowecki (64.42.242.6 - 64.42.242.6) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 08:36 am: Edit

That is the beauty of the system. The winner already gets his hand shakes.....now if another loft wins the points for the race...Two lofts hsould get the hand shakes...Two happy campers instead of one.
I advise each and every club to print up the UPR type race sheet eash week and post it at the club. Let the people see how it works...After a year - I think people will want it implimented.

By Louis (207.164.138.110 - 207.164.138.110) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 08:53 am: Edit

Roly, that's why I stated "reduced". Absolutely, we will not nullify it from existing, but as is mentioned above, if we eliminate the mind set that first bird is the end of the story, and create a better understanding of what the sport is (especially in vast areas like ours)then were bringing it in the right direction for it being (less} of a problem in one's mind.

By Marvin (139.55.151.84 - 139.55.151.84) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 09:19 am: Edit

Eastfield, I don't agree that the Average Speed is a farce but do agree that it does not necessarily show the value of the entire loft. We give awards for Average Speed and Champion Team. Many times they are won by the same loft but other times not. It spreads the winning around and more people are winners. Keeps more people happy. Now when the same loft wins both then he is really "top dog".

By Tommakowecki (64.42.242.27 - 64.42.242.27) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 09:42 am: Edit

Marvin, you and I do think alike. The more championships and awards ( not necessarily trophies) the happier our clubs will be.

By Mikev (142.140.249.222 - 142.140.249.222) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 09:46 am: Edit

Hi David

50 lofts. What you say is only 5 good lofts. 20 bird shipping limit. Combine currently posts 100 positions. According to you, with open clocking, these 5 good lofts will clock all 100 of their birds before the 6th best loft gets a bird, thus sweeping the result page. You like to study race results. Check the last 5 years. How many minutes on average is the 100th place bird behind the winner. I think you will find it is under 30 minutes, many times much less. Now talk to the best flyers. Alves, Rothgiesser, Bachmann, Lackie, Huber, Rotiroti, Brouwer etc. Ask them how many times they have all 20 birds or 100% of their entry home in less than 30 minutes. No need to guess, we can look it up. In other words, even under the current system, any loft that cant beat the 10th or 15 place bird of the top loft is never going to get on the race sheet anyway, fact.

Number 2. Even if they do get all 20 birds home before the 6th best guy, you want to award this guy with a top 25 position when in truth the bird did not even earn a top 100 position? I can't see how fixing race results can help anyone. My opinion.

Think of it another way. Tom Pond enters three horses in a race at Georgian Downs. Gets real lucky that week and scores 1, 2, 3 in the race. Clean sweep. Track announcer advises all bettors to hold their tickets. He announces the track accually had a clocking limit for the race so Tom actually only gets first. The 2nd and 3rd place horses are deleted from all results as if they never raced. The 4th place horse is shown on the result as 2nd and the 5th place horse is listed as 3rd. Bets paid out accordingly. Anyone betting Tom's 2nd or 3rd place horse just made a donation to the other bettors. Do you think the Georgian Downs patrons would agree that this is "helping" the sport? Now ask the same question to the UNC competitor that clocks 1-5 in the combine and his 6th bird was a UNC banded bird. UNC money paid out to a different bird that maybe finished 20th in the combine. Is a clocking limit making things more fair or less fair?

By Roly (62.253.32.7 - 62.253.32.7) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 09:57 am: Edit

Point conceeded Louis, likewise, I would also say that Eastfield posts quite rightly, except for two points to be taken into consideration -3 in reality I suppose or four as it unfolds - when stating the scenario of ... 'I'd rather have 2,3,4,5 out of 4 birds sent than 1st out of 10 sent and no others in the 1st 10 or 20 %...' Though I conceed that it is nice, and another hand gets shook, the reality is that A. THE loft that is 2,3,4,5th etc. is only prooving that THAT in that race THAT that 'IS' the LOFT in form on that DAY!. Full stop. B. The 'Winner' was the real winner because it was PREPARED for that race ... others in that loft may well be only sent for Fitnes / training, peperation purposes. Again though it is UP to the individual fancier how he wishes to play THE game and to what ends... Either to packed them in or to win... Often the next races prove another loft is coming into 'Form' and of course results change, making it nice if it goes all around the club. Every one getting a bite of the cherry so to speak.
The Good and true, tried and tested fancier will still be he that prepares his birds for pacific races, and others back them up well when in above half decent form. If a Loft has say 30 birds, then there is every chance that that loft will take all the beating for 1st place and the 'Packing in'!
My thoughts as to how it will / would turn out only.

Once, well more than once actually, I related this certain occasion! 'I train well, fed and clean water regularly etc. etc. Did every thing poss I could to achieve a good season!
Well at seasons end I had won one or two with help of the Y/B's.
I had packed in well nigh every race, and was in or around the bottom 20 of the fed just about every race or higher. In fact going into the last leg OF the Gold Cup I was a few points a head... lost out to a great flyer whose birds I had train - among others - with mine.
Well I was quite happy and content .. dreaming and impatience to get the next race season off like!
Well I was talking to a great fancier, one I consider as good as anywhere you will get, including Belguim etc. etc. Says he to me 'Well Roly, where you going to get your new birds from?
Blurts out me to he 'What! crikey man you must be joking'! Now Gary had disposed of many great birds including many Fed winners let alone Club and open winners. he says to me' Dorn't wanna be ... weerrr unkind really Roly... But they ent much good are they really'!
And told me a few home UNWANTED truths like! But in all honesty it is hard to be diplomatic when telling a proud father his baby is ugly like ... and Gary was sure diplomatic! But it hurt and I stubbornly shrugged it off like!
Well I goes up later to the guy that had just beat me for the 'Gold Cup'' and me says to he 'What you think about me pigeons then Barry?' ... 'In what way' says he to me ... 'WEERRRRLL, Well you know, performance wise,En how they fared, and what to I oughta mate what what lik' ..A puase den he says ta me 'Yer goonna breed wid them den r yer'?
Hold me up thinks I' Of course I'm gonna blumming breed wid them! says me to he. 'What for?' says he to me. Long story short he puts me wise big time. If - LIKE I HAD - you have done every thing you can, clean and well fed RIGHT, watered, used a little trick here and there, trained them regularly, and above all 'TO A PROVEN' system rigidly, even taking time of work to do so, and the most you can do is pack them into the top ten / TWENTY ... Then realistically they aren't good enough! It's pure sweet and simple, and blumming hard to swallow!
So a lot of fanciers will get the drift enforced via that system as it goes ahead, and the GOOD thing is that those who really wanna get up there and improve will GET UP THERE.... those that don't will be flying the same birds and their off spring quite contently dreaming of 'If Only.. ah but next season.
One must remember this. 'TODAY IS YESTERDAY'S TOMORROW'!

By Roly (62.253.32.7 - 62.253.32.7) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 10:10 am: Edit

You see all, regardless of sentiments, if your birds have done their very best to their capabilities, and fall short, even packing in the lower region,EVEN where and WHEN it is easy to see ALL THEM others birds that you did beat... Sorry they aren't good enough ... or you wanna be content to 'Just Fly' your birds.
Because many of them others that were beaten by you, weren't there to try! It wasn't their' race'!
Could be if the Ring - Sorry you call them Band numbers are published each week, that you take note of the 'Good Flyers' birds bands. The chances are you will see that as some drop off then others come into THEIR' own and start Winning. Then there are the different Distances; some may be strifing for etc.

By Mikev (142.140.249.222 - 142.140.249.222) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 10:35 am: Edit

Hi Roly. I have no idea how your Gold Cup is awarded, but here in Canada, any loft "packing them in" into the top 20 positions of the combine every week would run away and hide from the next best loft. They would be so far ahead in the loft championship awards that no one else would even be able to see their tail lights.

If you want to see how proper awards are calcualted, you should make a study of the Belgium systems. They are superior to the rest of us pretenders.

By Roly (62.253.32.7 - 62.253.32.7) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 11:25 am: Edit

We don't have anythng like what has been proposed here ... well only on single birds, some nominated before seasons starts, and Sometime a 2 bird nomination like and such. Like for a POINT system in our club would be only a bird in say top ten, and only one bird per fancier. Draw back as I believe here is that it means ALL fanciers in the scheme clock all the birds in to stop other fanciers from obtaining top ten position if possible.
The Gold Cup I was referring to is not a club or nation it's a Federation Cup - like a Combine in your Country, whereas a Combine here is a collection of clubs that form a Federation, and the Combine then is a Collection of Federations.
Then of course we are able to HAVE National with Sections etc.
One compete ove the three longests races and only one bird of course can count in in that race.. but another bird of yours that is first bird home for you would count. I.E. only your first bird will count, and it could be three different birds that do it... obviously because not many birds will be sent to the three longest races, but mostly one will find that it is just two birds that do the trick like.
The Winning Loft is whose birds combined over the three best distance performance etc of the three longest races. Many a good bird has been sent and lost trying to win this cup...!

By Marvin (139.55.151.84 - 139.55.151.84) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 11:26 am: Edit

Tom, we don't give many trophies anymore. We are getting to old to dust them LOL. Actually we like a picture of the winning bird in a frame and an engraved plate like on a trophy at the bottom for Combine Champion Bird, etc. Also like to see a race results sheet laminated onto a nice piece of wood. Then you can see who all you beat for that win.

By Marvin (139.55.151.84 - 139.55.151.84) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 11:29 am: Edit

Just remembered something I wanted to say. Even with the eclocks and no clocking limits it is amazing how many times we will have 5 different lofts in the first 5 or 6 places in a race.

By Mikev (142.140.249.222 - 142.140.249.222) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 11:37 am: Edit

Roly. Your Gold Cup sounds like our long distance average speed award. Unlike Clarence, I believe that average speed is the best and truest measure that is currently used in Canada. It could certainly be improved upon i.e. coefficient, but of the current methods, it is the best. The best of loft A against the best of loft B. It minimizes the numbers advantage. Bigger teams still get some advantages, but not as great an advantage.

By Roly (62.253.32.7 - 62.253.32.7) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 12:20 pm: Edit

I whole heartedly agree there Mike. But you would / will be suprised how many send the odd one or two against the numbers and come good!
Over here it is a mite different because we are fortunate in that every Club, no matter which direction it flies(we call it Roads here) has it's own distance events and scheme and awards etc. Most clubs will - for obvious reasons send with a bigger Concerns. Like the Federations that then join up and RELEASE TOGETHER. THESE ARE THEN CALLED COMBINES!
THIS saves costs and time for many individuals.
Also, Say on the three longest club raceS. Frazerborough, Thurso and lerwicke. One then is Flying for places in the Club, the Fed, the Section and a National!
Now take this a step further, I can fly with two or three different Roads. Then other Nationals. Possiblely between 7 - 10 where I am able to fly a Distance race of at least TWO every single week from the middle of to the end of May to nearly into August! 3/4 Paus. International Dax, Pau etc. which come down to race in the club etc. Then there are Marsienes, Palamoss, Barcelona, etc. etc. Hence to answer RIPS observation of nearly three years back Fantastic flyers can be winning and set trails alight and your searching the BHW would mean you would be hard pressed and futile unless you have the gist of this.
Two seperate Pau' 650 miles same week - end or anothetr the following week - end etc.
Yes in real terms we are spoilt for choice. Then take the up North Combine, yes this is not a National, but a Combine that will ship some weeks over 70,000 birds! iInside of this combine of course are some fantastic peformances that go unnotice every week to the untrained eye. Location / winds/ drag etc. and the LOFTS consistancy week in and week out! Now these boys are surely sought after - well their birds are! Then a Winner of a poor National of only 6000 birds will grab headlines and spout glory to many...(still nice to say the least I grant you) But back here nottoo much concern is raised, for we know what and who and what to expect. Yes you will see some names of these in Pigeon Mags over there. Ron Williams a master and a half. Rated every where for the last few seasons as the best in europe, the finest in our continent! By golly what a flyer, I rate him fantastic and a fancier has offered me the chance to take me over and spend some time with him. Then a bout a 100 miles away is a lad caled Sean Garfield, no one has ever hardly, or even heard of him. Bet the top names that YOU hear of HAVE! Bet they are slinging Wads of Dosh' at him day in and day out .. needn't work him!
Then soon some have the likes of his birds doing the damage..... Ent selling them on for another 5 / 6 years though! .... Mind seling a lot that are what they ... shall we say ..... were or should be! AND the beat goes on!
I saw Daves and MikeV's posts these last two days, and I hope that though I have only shown you the tip of the iceberg so to speak... just think what thoses first short steps could and can lead too. Even better than any one on this continent can hope to achieve. Numbers we Can yes. Terrian and horizon, new goals and above all ACHIEVEMENTS no none left, Moscow prehaps I'd deffinate go all out for that. But you know One must be getting ready for them king of 'EVENTS' NOW! incase they do come off. No, you GO FOR IT lads big time!

By Jimm (64.229.114.163 - 64.229.114.163) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 03:15 pm: Edit

Roly ..I enjoyed your story on the better fliers opinion of your birds.I also agree if You have done everthing in you mind..and are truthfull with yourself.
You should not take it as critism and try to inprove your breeding.Standing still I believe leaves one behind.
It does a person well to fly against good compitition if he has an open mind and is not content to have that 10th position all the time.
Myself when I ship most of the time it is with the thought of being Ist..most of the time it doesn't happen but to me that is pigeon racing.
I do like to see my team do well but truth be known I do enjoy winning..Most of the time I can put it down to something I missed but Oh well..there is always next week or next year..with some changes to the better.
Average speed is what we have over here..as said before ne bad race can take that away from you..lol
Maybe wrong but still like to be 1st with the bird with a noticable lead than to have all 5 birds home in the top 50 in the combine..but that is just me.
Just my thoughts

By Mikev (66.185.85.73 - 66.185.85.73) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 04:11 pm: Edit

Jimm T. I need to send you info on the seminar. What is your current e-mail address. mine is mrvanderjagt@yahoo.com

By Peterl (216.209.146.86 - 216.209.146.86) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 04:39 pm: Edit

Well I think the best measure is the overall loft points,especially at the combine level.This indicates the real strength of yuor loft as opposed to how fast your first bird came home.As well you can miss a race or two and still be in the game as opposed to flying every race to stay in the averages.One missed race and your out.

By Mikev (66.185.85.73 - 66.185.85.73) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 05:47 pm: Edit

Hi PeterL. Some top flyers in the combine eg Tony Alves, Bill Sheridan etc keeps a race team of 60 plus birds. I keep a race team of 8 widowhood cocks. We fly two races a week. I send 100% of my team every week, 4 birds to each race. Sooner or later, I have to give a bird a rest and also I am bound to lose the odd bird. Some weeks I can only ship one or two birds to a particular race. Bill Sheridan and the other big team racers ships 20 birds to every race. 40 birds every week. Five birds/race count for points because of our five bird clocking limit. Do you really think that I have a better chance at winning loft points than I do at winning average speed?

By Jimm (64.229.14.213 - 64.229.14.213) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 06:05 pm: Edit

Mikev..got the e-mail downloaded A-OK..will pass along seminar info to the other 3.
Thank You

By David (216.208.56.113 - 216.208.56.113) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 06:31 pm: Edit

first i shouldnt have opened me big mouth. its taken me over 20 minutes to read all the above posts.second have to say it was great reading.third mike i wouldnt have bet on the other two horses if i knew the rules before i bet. the above posts give me a truer understanding of it.i guess its like all things in life if its not earned were not going to get it.

By Roly (62.253.32.7 - 62.253.32.7) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 06:36 pm: Edit

Mike I know just where your coming from.
Shows how good the fanciers of yesteryear really were, and their pigeons. - I know we actually send as many in total as what was sent upto the Mid Sixties - But then we had 5 times as many flyers.
Now these flyers had all sorts of litle quirks and what nots, but by far the majority were pressed hard to feed and do justice to their birds whilst raising a family. Yes pre war as well as post war!
8 to 10 pairs were the norm for the majority. Most had to fly systems akin to 'Natural' to compete every week.
Many never trained above what they could take on push bike or even walk carring the basket via trollies and such like contraptions.
These guys HAD to be very observant to suceed. if not they were also rans as THIS THEN AS NOW! is an all important aspect of the game. If one didn't understand what he saw. well tough luck! this was the start of the differential in being 'Tops' and competing and making the numbers up. Losses were by far a lot less, If not on the day then the birds mostly worked their way back home during the week. Now the art was to prepare and have the right bird in the right shape at the right time. Breed 16 - 24 young - 24 was a big team i'll tell you for over 50%. Lose the chaff as y/b's was the motto via sending them every week upto 300 nigh miles... The there were the Elgins, Perths etc. that certainly sort those out that you weren't to sure of. Now when they worked back the Good fancier stuck to whatever his beliefs were.. get shot or like most give them another chance. The more fortunate ones that had say 30 y/bs disposed of them! that was the start of the gleaning and being able to stay there. Still many great fanciers worked on a shoe string and beat the Frankie Georges and Masserella's and my how did they bark then. They were there to be shot at! and many a 'Master Craftmens arose through good and kind managerment and strict epthics.
Same as to - day too many believe they will hold up via having more numbers in that each week surely one or two at least will be in form! I know many a rich man that can't fly a kite. My mate Niel lost £10,000 worth of young birds first toss. Was told via a good fancier that he was pushing it like. but tried to get UNKNOWN birds NOT BRED IN THE LOFT BUT BOUGHT IN to compete with a knowledgeable fancier that KNEW his Birds Capabilities. THAT is rule number two. Know their limitations and prime them for the best efferts when it SUITS them. TRIAL an Error is fine if you KNOW what you are learning when the error occurs. If not then your chucking away what CAPABILITIES you have know idea of. Also it is far far easier to do justice and watch, study and observe a small well knitted kit that a whole flock of don't knows.
I love my birds out flying and roof topping - yes I know all the pro's and cons about them not trapping, taking the mick and doing as they like etc. etc. But that needn't nor is the case, Mine will trap. But IT is when roofing, taking off and chasing, ...or huddled up in a fluffy ball of feathers. these things are what the Sucessful fanvcier must see,realise and TAKE efective action! Cor Blimey dorn't I ramble and rabbit on lol. Get carried away folks sometime lol.

By David (216.208.56.113 - 216.208.56.113) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 06:42 pm: Edit

roly yes but enjoy the history in it.workman what was the fastest speed he flew and the slowest speed. also what was his longest race he won against how many. thanks

By Roly (62.253.32.7 - 62.253.32.7) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 06:56 pm: Edit

You have me there, know he did the 1900's and also won at less than 800 which as you can imagine was one hell of a hard tough race.
But I honestly can't remember... will see what I can dig up for interest sake though.

By Peterl (199.243.16.68 - 199.243.16.68) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 07:49 pm: Edit

Hi Mikev,I take your point,with so few birds it would be difficult to win champion loft.In my case it is difficult to show up for every race and as a result I never qualify for average speed.Each to their own as long as we enjoy the hobby then we are all winners.

By Mikev (66.185.85.73 - 66.185.85.73) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 10:07 pm: Edit

PeterL. Very true words.

By Mikev (66.185.85.73 - 66.185.85.73) on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 10:09 pm: Edit

JimmT. Great. See you one week Sunday.

By David (209.226.235.180 - 209.226.235.180) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 06:00 am: Edit

mike v.march 21. auction what time will it start.and is there room for fellows that didnt buy a ticket to drop by and bid on the birds up for auction.is it possible to put the list on here and the unc web site.we just might find theres a fellow or two that would call you etc. with a bid knowing he cant make the event. plus its showing many the class of birds the unc has worked hard to get donated.

By Mikev (66.185.85.73 - 66.185.85.73) on Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 07:16 am: Edit

Hi David

I will post the list on the special events string. Good suggestion.

Phone or mail bids are welcome!

The auction will be integrated into the other planned activities so it is difficult to give an exact start time and the hall should be full pretty much to capacity by those supporting the seminar through buying a ticket.