Membership Growth
The Discussion Centre: Promotional Ideas: Membership Growth
Bob P...Sorry to say I never had much luck with the young out of your blue hen
I put her down last fall right or wrong..I believe I gave her an honest try..but who knows..I do know she is by far not the only bird I have not been successful with..lol..and I still have a few of those on my race team.
Just my thoughts
The facts regarding the effect of a west wind on the results are obvious...except to the owner of the famous wind proof family which only you seem to own
I think my last post was intended for Mikev or anyone else that does not understand the meaning of headwind tailwind....
Obviously I don`t know the width of my combine in miles I only understand meters per minute on race day with a Norwester..200 to 300 meters per minute behind eastern lofts .No muskoka birds in top fifty....
Three seasons ago I sent three cock birds to Frazerburg. 450 miles like. Was a strange day in Patchy views, Cloudy with sunny intervals etc.
Well They were up about 7. 30 or so in a North Westerly wind, whatever, but the gist is this, I time me ole Red cock in and he, like the others nigh far behind, didn't look like they have been away. I was pretty pleased all in a, and though I knew I was a bit behind I thought I was in with a Shout. Well my velocity was 1960 yds per minute. 18th, Winner in our club 2012 yds per minute.... Fed winner in the east 2059, not bad I thought. and I bthink MikeV checked this race, not too sure like, but have that feeling. On the Coast, 60 miles East 2300 odd. Now that is to me it in a Nut Shel. Sure there is always a fluke or whatever, but... not often.
Any one who believes that pigeons are not effected by wind when flying is crazy especially when tired, and even more so when the wind is from a tail and slightly side wind. These tend to tilt them forward and down and the birds will yield to it every time it gusts.
Like a ship at sea, a pigeon know's it can often cover more ground with less effort by flying straight into a head wind than it can battling on into a side front (shoulder) or rear (Hip) wind, and they will turn into it and correct for home further down the course depending on how strong that wind is of course, and their physical condition plus how far they have to fly to reach home.
But at the end of a 500 miler, you can bet the farm that most times they will have been influenced by the wind in one way or another. 
Well Roly. Unless the pigeons in England are very different than any I have seen, 2300 or even 1960 ypm means a very strong tailwind, not a side wind, as PeterL is talking about, so your example is completely irrelevent to the topic at hand. Your comments about east west biases are bogus for our local conditions and are hurtful to those of us that are trying to promote large releases. Since you have no idea what our local conditions actually are, how about butting out. We have enough problems with our home grown pea brains.
PeterL. The last time you flew a full competetive season, as I remember it, you were 4th loft average speed in a 90 odd member combine. I found your complaints about the NW wind odd considering you were with maybe one exception the furthest loft west in the entire combine and not just west, but west by maybe 150 miles of the more easternly lofts. You wrote that FACT off by claiming that the wind patterns were highly unusual that year so the results were skewed. Well you were going to post examples this past year of the wind every week with your prediction of what lofts would win the following day as wind is the only thing that determines winners. FACT, you neglected to do that for us. FACT Bob Stewart, one of the most westernly lofts in your combine won more 1st combines this year than anyone. Another unusual year? FACT, on the days that the Muskoka club were being beat by the rest of the EOC by 200 to 300 mpm the UNC combine was flying the same course under the same conditions and many UNC lofts west of Muskoka lofts have velocies comparable to the EOC winning velocities. FACT. The two Kingston Clubs are the most easternly of all the EOC clubs. FACT Kingston did not win a single combine in 2003 nor have one loft in the top ten in average speed FACT or loft points FACT. FACT the most westernly loft in the entire EOC finished in the top 10 as did the 4th most westernly loft. FACT the race results belie your wind theory. FACT all lofts east or west win or lose based on the quality of the management, the quality of the birds and the abilities of the handler, not the wind. Do we believe the wild whims of a fanciful mind, or the FACTS.
Bob F. The crazy ones are the ones that think the wind only affects their pigeon and no one elses pigeon. Or affects their pigeon differently than everyone elses pigeon. If two pigeons are flying north to south 300 to 400 miles and one loft is twenty miles east of the other loft, a side wind affects both birds exactly the same. If the bird flying to the westside loft gets blown east 20 miles by the side wind and has to make a late course correction, than so does the bird flying to the eastside loft duh. Or are you saying the bird in the west loft gets blown 40 miles east and the bird in the east loft only gets blown 20 miles east. Come on, the effect is identical and a side wind does not offer an advantage to either bird.
I don't agree with that Mike But, in view of the fact that it looks like I'm advocating that certain locations have an advantage in the proposed event, I'll drop this conversation like the hot scone it is.
I am sorry for the impression I might have given but this was honestly not my intent. I wan't this race to go ahead and be the success it so rightly deserves to be. Good luck Mike.
Personally I thought we all were giving our prediction with a tounge in cheek.
My mistake.. I didn't relize the season was fast approaching so the sense of humour has to leave the discussion??
In that case I will get serious my self and state matter of factorily{never was strong in English} that I might not win after all...but will..God willing..sent a couple of birds anyway...lol
I am a believer that the best bird wins on a given weekend and wind is??secondary ..have been wrong plenty of times.I just keep prepairing and sending anyway.
Just my thoughts
OK Bob, Fair enough, but the race aside and simply talking hypothetically about winds. You live say 15 miles due east of me. To our north is a vast level plain with no mountains, no lakes and no other topographical features, just open parrie. We both ship a 400 mile race to the north. We wake up on the morning of the race to a bright clear day with a few puffy clouds rolling lazily across the sky. We each go out to our respective lofts and peer northward wondering what time the birds were up. We feel a 15 mph wind on our left cheek, a west wind. We both think we are in for a good race with our birds fighting a direct side wind. In your opinion, are you saying that you have the advantage over me because my birds are going to be blown further east and thus further off course, than your birds and that your birds will come more directly home and additionally, if there was yet another loft say another 10 miles east of you, that he will have the advantage over you? Am I understanding you correctly?
Hi Jimm. Predicting winners in March in this part of the country is always tounge in cheek. Peter's unsubstantiated phobia about west winds and his ongoing attempts to break clubs and combines into sections is a more serious matter. It also adds fuel to the fires of the anarchist who never wish to see anything grow and prosper and always have a reason why any idea will never work. See you Sunday, we have a standing room only crowd.
Jimm I think you are right. Or why else would folks way down here fly it? Eternal optimists? No, they think they also have good birds and a good chance.
Th winner of a race is often the one that makes the least mistakes....of course some pigeons get blown off course......but I believe the winners adapt better than the competion......Yes - if two identically conditioned, motivated and genetically identical pigeons are subject to side winds and different loft locations - Yes one of them has to win......but the results will still be close.
Least mistakes. Management and birds. And as Spring is a soon coming we have a hell of a snowstorm here! Not from your place Tom. Michigan weather pattern.
I hear that the east is getting a late spring snow fall.........we''ll send you some nice stuff soon.
Mike you still fail to explain why the whole Muskoka club fails to make the top fifty on days with a Norwester!!!!!!You only point out that it is possible to do well from here over the entire season which I do not dispute...my point is that you cannot do well from here on days when a Norwester is blowing unless everyone can get a hold of your famous wind proof strain!!
As for sections breaking up clubs and combines it hasn`t happened yetand besides we don`t need them as you correctly point out.
Thanks for pointing out how well we fly in Muskoka All I want you to explain is why we fail to make the top fifty on the Norwesterly days!!!!!!
See I can respond without calling you names or accusing you of anarchy perhaps you could show me the same courtesy????!!!
By the way Mike you are the only one that really knows why the Orillia club broke up....from my perspective it had nothing to do with wind or sections...only one combine offering a better course ie more distance
Wow!!!! Now there's some good arguing!!!!! Keep it up fellers!!!
I just scrolled back and read what you wrote me Mike, thanks for the clarification. Though, I do remember Dave mentioning that he had someone (company) donating $1,000 towards this race, and it being for prize money, though I could be (and often am) wrong. But I definitely don't understand the source of my information. Why was he way off??? hmmmm.....
hi louis. hell i wasnt way off.way out maybe . and were were you last sunday. hmmm.louis at the start of this unc ovc and i thought eoc were all heading to moosnee i thought. well its the middle of mar, and the unc is the only combine committed.plus a good number of flyers out side the unc.a couple things are pending i see the fellow today still hoping i will get it. second it was my decsion we use this for transportation to make sure unc and all flyers have a shot a at a 500 mile national.again we wont have a complete figure of monies till after the auction this weekend.many things have been put on the table. one have a booklet made up like the other national. take out a half page in the cu year book get the winner a class trophy the list goes on.all these decsions have to be made yet.i feel our monies are better spent on this than a open for the first year.in my mind these things have to been done first. then we decide if we now want to run a open.it by far not a closed door for us or any other club etc. that would like to run one. we just need a little more time.
wind. i suggest you dont stand down wind after i eat a can of beans and pickled eggs.louis peter kinda think that north west wind is a good thing for the rest of your combine.just skipped over the cu year book and seen were fellows in your club won four or five combines.hell other clubs would like to win that to. good flying. screw the wind let it howl your club has won enough.hmmm.
Hi Dave, sorry, I was not referring to you concerning my "source". With the $1000, yes I did read and was fully aware that it might get used for getting the birds there. Distinctly aware and appreciate the transition in thought. Simply my point with that was, the concept of having an open was there, and I had no idea that it had been dropped, and in having the conversation with my "source" it seemed I was being bumped out of something that I felt I shouldn't be, is all. I was totally misguided by the info that I received. All's good by me Dave!!
And as for your comment on the wind Dave, you should not put me in there since I am not one that is discussing it, since it doesn't matter to me. I don't care so much of first place, as having my team (all the birds that I send to the race) perform their best based on the conditions set before them. That is my goal, and that is also why I'm an advocate of the UPR system.
Take a better look! Of the 16 OB races, Muskoka took 6 combines, and the lofts were 15+ times in the top 10 positions. The year we joined, the club took 1/3 of the OB and 1/3 of the YB combine wins (no help from me mind you). The fact that some years we do very poorly lends itself to the wind element? At this point in time, I don't care. I've had the wind in my favour and have lost big time, so I'm still dealing with the knowing that I'm not yet on top of the game. Got slaughtered by the UNC in this past National, with favourable winds for myself to do good, so there you have it.
Hi David,we do not cry about the wind,our club does very well indeed.I just want Mikev to explain what happens on the days with a Norwester and none of our birds make the top fifty.He so far has not offered an explanation...instead he calls me an anarchist bent on destroying clubs and combines...
Hi PeterL. Putting words into my mouth does not change the FACTS. I did not call you anything and never referred to the Orillia Club, which by the way has never broken up since I have been a member. Why do you think that I was referring to you in particular as one of the Anarchists?
As for your question, I have listed the FACTS here many times. Last year you promised to predict the combine winners on Friday night/Saturday morning based on the wind. Why did you not follow through with that? I know the answer, but maybe some of the other readers are curious.
Here is another point to ponder on your own question. On these days the NW wind allegedly keeps the Muskoka members out of the top 50, is the only club in the top 50 Kingston? Port Hope, Peterborough, Newcastle etc are all further west of Kingston than Muskoka is west of them. Why can they beat Kingston and Belleville on those days but Muskoka can't beat Peterboro, Port Hope etc? Maybe it is because of the OVERFLY and an increasing tailwind i.e. NORTH wind, and has nothing to do with the east/west position and everything the do with the north/south position.
Hi Roly
I received your e-mail and appreciate the understanding. I agree with the gist of what you wrote and will provide a more complete response to your ideas by return e-mail but maybe not until next week. If you e-mail me your mailing address I will send you a couple of sets of past Upper Canada National result booklets that might offer a better understanding of the situation over here and how the National is run.
Will do Mike.
Mike you accused me of trying to break up clubs and combines?????You mention my name and anarchists in the same paragraph!!!!
As for predicting the results on a Norwester all the members of our club can do this!!!!Last year I flew part of the season with Orillia and don`t remember you asking me to predict anything???
Mike we are not talking NORTH wind we are talking NORTHWEST wind...something you don`t seem to comprehend!!!!!
So in conclusion..you have still failed to answer the question....
As for the Orilla SPLIT a few years back you are the ONLY person that knew what happened...the rest of us can only guess what went down
You can argue till you go blue in the face but the weather determins the winner in 95% of races.
Hi Peter. I never did accuse you of any such thing. I stated your ideas about sections feed the Anarchist agenda. As to the winds the results that I, Louis and you have posted prove to everyone but you that your theory is bogus so nothing more can be said about that.
As to the Orillia Club splitting, once again your interputation of the truth is flawed. Yes several members did quit the club under your Presidency, but they simply went and joined an existing neighbouring club. Many of them have since returned and a few still belong to the neighbouring club. How you think that this means that the Orillia Club split-up is beyond me. Members come and go all the time, here and in every club for a whole host of reasons. Personally I believe in the concept of loyalty and try to work for the betterment of any organization I am a member of instead of tucking tail and running everytime something is passed that I don't personally agree with. Organizations can only grow and prosper and continually improve to offer better and better services to their members if the membership is willing to look to the greater good once in while instead of only personal advantage.
Amen , enough said , say no more , lol .
Well I'll say that Cananda, and this I believe, is only just on the throes of being a sort after Nation pigeon racing wise.
You with this 'Provisinal Race' have set a precedent that MUST be improved upon. I know there was / were similar races prior.
Now, and again with the cooperation of this great site, the whole Pigeon sport is just a ball at your feet waiting to be kicked to set the game in motion. Do Not kick it into touch!
Whilst the euzubrence is there flowing through the viens of so many, and being watched via so many more, NOW is the time for certain ones to take a little responcibility and help ALL via being a joint committee of Volenteers only - oh no need to vote folks on etc. but carry on with a little think cap that tries to ensure this 'Race' goes a head and is a sucess.
Now I feel is the time of a few others to be a Think Tank for next year with the view of extending and creating this set up that is starting to grow.
Not just this province but Other Races.
Overall CHAMPION Loft. Overal Champion Fancier Overall Best Y/B etc. Cananda! Now that has a nice ring to it.
How and why NOT many Province races of Four direction where and when Possible. Now That is also a thought provactive view. whilst all the time the reality is THAT every fancier fly is still Committed to the grass roots. Their club!
Never mind about one thing at a time, Little by little, walking before running. It goes hand in hand does It's called progress, acheivent, Striking whilst the iron is hot. In other words the reality is 'To - Day is Yesterday's Tomorrow'!
And cordination of Races can be flown on the same day, with relevant distances etc. AND also as Cananda id so large, in relevant directions.
If for instance one was to fly from the SOUTH eAT.. Then a 400 miler at most times would be a blumming good test and achievement.
West to East and Viser - versa, now a combinenation of four races for Presidents Cup!
Etc. etc.
Hi MikeV...I'll give you my view on a day when the wind is from the north i can predict where my birds are coming from right over the top of my house, On a day when the wind is northwest they come in from a different angle more from the east so to me it would seem that the wind doe's in some way play a small roll in the direction the birds arrive at hence a little of course. just my own observation Mike. bill butterfield.
Hi Bill. Absolutely. And if you lived 10 miles further east your birds would still come straight from the north on a north wind and slightly from the east in a east wind. The side wind affects all birds the same. Don't think of it from a human prespective sitting in a backyard, think of it from the prespective of the bird, flying from Cochrane to Mississauga and another bird flying from Cochrane to Scarboro. Both birds will be affected exactly the same. Your bird will be pushed slightly east and so will the Scarboro bird. The net effect will be the same.
Anyway, I have explained it everyway I know, so if you still think the wind affects one bird differently than another bird, just because it lives in a different house, than I surrender.
Yes Bill the wind does affect the birds to a CERTAIN degree.When I was flying well in the EOC a NORTH wind was welcomed.Indeed it was on a North wind day I topped the combine with three birds....On a Norwester I would seldom make the top fifty..The line of flight on the Norwester days is almost a tailwind for the rest of the combine..enough about wind ;it`s starting to stink!!
Roly our geography prevents flying from all directions ..indeed when I was combine rep with the UNC I suggested a change in direction for some of the shorter distances and was almost laughed out of the room...I agree cooperation is essential and all the trailers flying the North course should be joint releasing every weekend but the will is not yet there.
Mike all Louis said was that he is not a part of this discussion...As for Orillia only one member returned on a full time basis...Yes I was president during the split ..and resigned after a very serious attempt to obtain two combine scheduals for Orillia.Somebody through a wrench into the plan so half the club changed combines.Multiple combine flying from one club is a thing of the future and eventually will come to pass once the dinosaurs see the LIGHT.
So in the spirit of cooperation and joy of the sport may the Moosonee and Bathurst races be a success..I plan to enter both and hope to see you there!!!no matter what way the wind blows!!!!!!!!!!
Hi all the last thing i'm going to say about wind is i hope it not comming from your arse's. bill butterfield.
"Multiple combine flying from one club is a thing of the future and eventually will come to pass."
Peter, on this point I hope you are correct and yes, I will be in the Bathurst and the Moosonee.
As I have explained to you in great detail, and I thought that you had finally come to realize, no one, least of all me, threw a wrench into your plans to have two schedules in the Orillia Club. The simple fact of the matter is, coming into Orillia would have added one hour on the EOC pick-up schedule and the EOC was not willing to do that. Think about it Peter, you were asking them to do exactly what Clarington was asking them to do this year. Did I "throw a wrench" into the Clarington request also. It makes as much sense as what you are accusing me of. For the last time, I was talking to the President of the EOC, John Cooper about the Upper Canada National as he was the President of the Canadian National Flying Club at that time and I was the race secretary. He mentioned your request at that time and asked me who the President of the Orillia Club was. I told him it was you and that he should call you, which he did. That was the full extent of our conversation on the matter and the only time I ever mentioned anything about it to any EOC member. If you choose to believe B.S and untrue gossip, I guess that is your right, and your loss.
BillB....enjoy it is only once a year...
Just received and email from out club president. He will promote the Moosonee race with our club and the federation. Yes I have one of these now.
Yes Mike the attempt at two combine flying was probably a long shot...as president I received the blame for splitting the club..perhaps we both received bum wraps??Since our paths will continue to cross I`d like to figure out what way the wind was blowing back then.As well as continuing our present wind "discussion" without rendering the rest of our audience insane!!
sunset. amen to you and your pigeon site picking up these flyers for the moonsee.GREAT.
STRONG WINDS. due they affect a flying pigeon hell yes.did i just hear somebody say no. hmmm.ok. lets start with a strong wind from the south right on there nose.do think we would all agree it slows the birds down depending how strong the wind is.iam sure we have all have had birds over fly even in a head wind dum ducks doing that. so why did they do this. i know but i want to see if you know. now we have a strong east wind is this a sure bet that a fellows living on the west side are sure winners every race. we would think so but the race results havnt shown us that. now we go to the north west wind.were many in the east will come out ahead. theres a couple factors here in me books. first is the location of the race point with the nw wind. second is most lofts are located on the east side.drag etc. third is with this wind all birds are doing a higher than normal speed and get caught up in a group and wizz by putting us behind the 8 ball.we know the pigeons that beat us with the nw wind dont fly faster because we have beaten them many times.to me many are going so fast they just done have time to think when and were they should break to be a winner for us so we get them comming out of the south or east.but when they do break or are thinking we have a winner.many here have broken the wind rule. aw it just doesnt happen enough. in closing if theres two birds that are equal in every way. one lives in the east one lives in the west and theres a strong wind from the east the bird that live in the west will have that edge if the race point is straight above both.but more important is to have a goal to breed a line of birds that stay on line no matter were the wind and many of the wind chats would be out the window.
Hi David,I think the race point plays a role especially in the EOC where the bulk of the lofts are well to the EAST of we poor souls stuck on the shores of Georgian Bay.A Hearst race with a Norwester is a tail wind making it really hard for
short end lofts...
With a strong NW from points due North I think the whole flock gets pushed South East for a while resulting in poor results from the western most lofts beceuse these birds now have tocut into the Nw wind to regain their line...the eastern lofts are still on line with the benefit of a quarter tailwind...OK fire away
Peterl..Just maybe.. with your birds flying 60 miles or so shorter than some lofts would maybe make up for some of the wind??
I am sure Mikev has heard this line before...lol
Looking forward to this weekend Mike.. will stop eating tonight to build up an appetite..and will sharpen my pencil to get some tips.lol
Just my thoughts..or just a little wind
Hi David. Your example. Race point due north. Two lofts exactly 400 miles south of release point. One loft 20 miles east of the other loft. Wind 30 km/h out of the west. Are you saying the bird coming to the west loft will be affected by the side wind and get blown east, but the the bird going to the east loft will not be affected by the side wind and will fly straight home?
PeterL. Believe it or not, but I think we actually agree and how the winds affect the birds. Where we disagree is on geography. I believe that the east/west difference in the EOC is not great enough to make a cross wind for some lofts a tail or partial tail wind for others. You appear to believe it does. I believe that the results in the past prove my point and you believe that they prove your point. What we have is a difference of opinion. Since it really is an opinion, it cannot be proven or disaproven so on that point, we are going to have to agree to disagree, which to me is fair enough.
Jimm Towes. The north/south difference between Kingston/Picton and Muskoka is closer to 160 miles than it is to 60 miles FYI. Good you are coming hungrey, one thing I can promise is that you are going to leave full. You appear to be following Rodgers light to heavy curve. He is definately into the charbohydrate and protein loading for this coming Sunday.
Jimm,absolutely...from Hearst we all have a tail wind and the bird`s velocity increases as they fly...the due North race points with respect to my loft means that the eastern lofts get the benefit of a quarter wind while my birds must fight the wind to hold their line
Mike you are saying an east west spread of 160 miles is not enough to make a difference on a westerly wind?????
PeterL. I said that the north/south spread (overfly) is closer to 160 miles than it is to 60 miles. Do not confuse the two issues.
In relation to the east/west distances, what I am saying, and have always said, is that the Upper Canada National results since 1984 (as well as many other results e.g. La Sarre National, Oshawa Gold Band, Stouffville/Cannington Blue Band etc, etc etc and much other evidence) has proven to my satisfaction that the east west bias between Hamiltion and Ottawa on the north course is so small as to be negliable, if it exists at all. When I hear people within my own combine complaining about the same thing, but on one quarter the scale (less than 30 miles), I am forced to just shake my head in disbelief at how some people can make themselves believe what the evidence does not support.
I remember when I flew in the old Toronto Fed. the east would usually kick the wests butt.Then we started the training trailer,2 release points,
west birds one spot, east another,about 60 miles twice a week.after a while, the combine results,changed,you may get a 1st bird east then one west and vice versa.Training made the difference.I think the winds do play a part,but they have to be strong headwinds, then the best conditioned birds with a drive to get home will win.
From an experience last year I think I learned something. When our YB race schedule first came out the first races were on the north course so I started training north. The birds had about 10 or 12 tosses north at about 40 miles then someone told there was a change in the schedule that I didn’t know about. We were flying the west course. I turned the birds west and had them past Alfred that’s about 60 miles for the birds. A member of our club asked if I would train with him. This guy likes to joint release after he has his birds going well. I think that’s to have his birds pull the others in his direction. In fact one guy in the club who trained with him a few times told me that his birds were stopping at the other guys loft before going home. I knew what the guy was trying but decided to joint toss with him anyway.
We went to Montebello, which is about 40 miles for 50 and me for him. I had been there before and mine always went to the mountains rather than follow the river. I had 16 birds he had about 60. When they were released my 16 took his 60 with them to the mountains. He looked in disbelief and told me they had never gone in that direction before. When I told him mine always did and I guessed it was because they had been trained north in the mountains before I found out the federation had changes the race schedule he didn’t look happy.
When I arrived home my birds were in the loft. I called him and his had just arrived. He didn’t call again asking if I wanted to train with him.
What I think I learned is that birds would favour the side of the course they are trained at. If I were on the east side of a north course I would train northeast, if west, northwest. I think it would encourage them to break earlier and follow the line they know best. This season I will only train north, not west where everyone else will be. I am north of everyone else in the club and federation. Unfortunately I won’t know if what I think I learned last year is valid until the end of this season. I have no control of the wind but I can try to influence what route the birds will want to take.
Bob. My opinion only. If anyone can get their young birds to 40 or 50 miles flying together I do beleive it 'imprints'.
Wind. Depends on strengh of wind obviuosly. Apart from a good strong wind, steady, at the distance, lighter winds do not mean much.
Any race regardless of distance that is around the 1000 meter mark velocity or below is a working race. Crunch time for many birds. Umm..800 meters a minute is a toughie. For the distance? Nowadays the old 'Plugger' pigeons of the past just cannot compete. It is a try or die for some birds. I hope to breed triers. Time will tell.
BillB. Bud is coming up to visit this weekend. I have to show him the computer! Old fart may even buy one! Uhmm..old fart ..at his age that makes me an old fart also...same age..ummm..
Hal, from one old fart to another. I agree with,
Quote:My opinion only. If anyone can get their young birds to 40 or 50 miles flying together I do beleive it 'imprints'.
If old birds are consistantly trained in the same direction shouldn't it have the same effect? Not long ago there was a program in England that concluded that the birds soon learned to follow the highways home. Could that be because highways are built along the easiest path? Just as the birds will do unless they are programed through training to favor a more difficult route? I honestly don't know. I do beleive that if the birds are trained to overcome obsticles rather than go aroud them they will.
MikeV.... I've heard you use that argument above several times Quote
"Two lofts exactly 400 miles south of release point. One loft 20 miles east of the other loft. Wind 30 km/h out of the west. Are you saying the bird coming to the west loft will be affected by the side wind and get blown east, but the the bird going to the east loft will not be affected"
I've been waiting for someone to challenge you on this but suppose I will do it myself... without prejudice.
I believe both birds or both groups of birds would drift eastwards some distance while still flying together. At some point they would start to break, and although they might continue to fly at the same speed, the birds now homng to the western loft would have a considerable distance more to go.
I believe your theory would be more correct if the 'breaking point' was the point of release and both birds were immediately headed directly home.
As a former bush pilot, I would still say that even in that case the eastern loft still has a distinct advantage.
This can be shown by supposing both birds would fly together from release to a point directly between the two home locations. From that time on the west bird would have to fly directly into the wind while the eastern bird would be blown directly home.
Respectfully argued...... Roland Z
hi folks. take a deep breath. stop and think what this site has done for our sport.it has generated amazing interest for a moosenee national from flyers far and wide.its generated ticket sales beyond reach for mar. 21. it has done the same for the four humbervalley breakfasts.IT DOESNT GET ANY BETTER THAN THIS.
If the release point is due North of my loft then it is well to the west of Jimm`s loft.If their is a norwester blowing my birds have to cut into the wind to hold their line while Jimm`s birds have a partial tail wind...
Mike over the years of racing this is what I have observed;North wind we can win,east wind we can win,south wind the boys on the short end win.WEST or NORTHWEST we seldom make the top fifty..and never win.
Let me ask you all a question. Would you rather be living in the most advantageous location OR would you rather enter a pigeon in "super form"? Which is more important?
Tom, I am voting in favor of the "super form" pigeon. We have a 470 mile front on our Combine this year. The winds do make some difference but sometimes over the years I have seen some clubs "have the wind" and still not win because of better birds or better form in other clubs that were fighting the wind. I often ask the ones who complain about wind, overfly, etc. if they won their club that day? If they say "no" then I say end of discussion as you have to win your club before you need to worry about the combine.
Yes, Marvin. We have flown a 200 mile front here too and the winner has not always been on the favored side. I have said it many times.....I get my birds in the best condition as I can - and if they are right - I know I will be in there regardless of the wind. Other places maybe different but this is my experiences
Roland. Great points. Your pilot experience adds tremendous creditability to this discussion. If your argument has a flaw, it is this. To make your case, you are assuming that the birds stick together for their intital homeward journey and that they drift east because of the side wind. That may or may not happen. Once we get GPS tracking, we will know for sure. Let me ask you this. Same scenario I stated above, but instead of pigeons, it is planes. I am assuming that pilots can and do plot a direct course or at least would in the situation I described above. If that is correct than the two planes would leave the release site on ever so slightly different vectors and have a different homeward journey, right from take off, correct? If so here is my question. Everything else being equal (the only difference in the entire scenario is the home loft locations) would the plane arrive at the east loft location first and if so by how many minutes or seconds.
With the greatest respect
Mike
I used to have a very complex Pilot's "slide rule" for doing just these scenarios. Last year my nephew was here and I gave it to him... he's an aviation nut at 12 yrs old.
Here goes.... let's use the scenario that these are old j3 wood and fabric cub planes capable of 100 miles per hour and your 30k wind is a 20 mph wind out of the west.
A 400 mile flight due south would take exactly 4 hours if there were no wind,and as you are using 400 miles as your distance for both lofts let's say that the release point is due north of the center point between the lofts.
Both planes using an initial heading of 180' drift east at 20mph for 4 hrs and end up 80 miles east of their target. (the center point)
At this point planeW is 90 miles from home and planeE is 70 miles from home, both can only fly at 80mph against the wind so planeW has an extra 15 minutes of flying time ahead of it to make it home.
The situation would be almost Identical if the planes vectored correctly from the beginning, one bucking the wind the other aided. about 15 minutes differance.
If planes could only fly 50 mph like our birds that difference would act on them roughly twice as long.
Mike... I beleive the great equalizing factor in this Hypothetical pigeon race is the fact that they do fly together for quite some time and the flock vectors more or less correctly for the general target area (not all of course) and thus minimize the advantage for the east loft.
If the two 50mph pigeons flew separately right from the start east would have a clear 1/2 hour advantage.
Mike you are avoiding the tremendous EAST WEST spread in the EOC.Release points North of my loft are north west of the rest of the combine...any westerly wind results in a tail wind or partial tail...even if there is no drifting my birds must fight a westerly wind while most other lofts are getting a least a partial tailwind...
Roland thank you for the imput...but you will have no chance of changing Mike`s mind unless you take him for a plane ride in a stiff Norwester..
PeterL I have enough trouble making up my own mind! And then often I forget what I decided.
Do any of you guys in the east know that I sell the TauRIS e-clock system? I never advertise (except just now) and I do this as part of my hobby. I also didn't want us to be at the mercy of the whims of people in other countries.
Hi Roland and Peter. That is very interesting and I think proves my point unequivically. Peter, your west/east spread in the EOC is percisely my point. Kingston to Penetang is roughly 180 miles east to west. According to Roland's calculations, that would give Kingston a clear 3 hour advantage in a 20 mph west wind. So unless Kingston is beating the rest of the EOC by a clear 3 hours on a regular basis, than the side winds are not affecting the race standings. As we know, Kingston failed to beat the combine even by one clear second in all of 2003. Conclusion. Side winds have minimal or no effect on the race results. Thank-you, I rest my case.
I have enjoyed this wind arguement. One thing to consider is that on windy days, the birds in a hurry will try to fly in a way that minimizes the wind effect. example; drop down low below trees or even at tree top level to try and get out of the wind. I have nothing but wild bush that my birds fly over. On windy days, they would be skimming the tree tops. On a quiet day, they would be higher up. Results are the only "facts" in this arguement, everything else is conjecture and may be right one time and wrong the next.
Hi Mike a point well taken i think we all should realise that when the weather man say's northwest at liberation lets say from 450 miles there are a awfull lot of the time when the wind direction is not the same all the way home how many time have we all looked at the weather and seen such and such winds but the weather man says some thing else at reliese so it should not be much of a veriation. my own feelings bill butterfield
On our 400+ mile front in our Combine we have had the two ends clocking within minutes of each other. From the speeds none of these birds could have flown very far together but must have broken for home right at the start. One race last year or the year before we had a loft from each of the 5 clubs in the top 6 on the same race. Our shortest Combine race is 450 miles and the longest is 600 miles so they have to break right away or the can't win since the two end clubs are 400+ miles apart.
Ok Mike why can`t the Muskoka club come close on west winddays ?? Do our birds suddenly lose form,or become stupid...The same thing occured in Orillia....many times on west wind days they were well down on the sheets...why can the Muskoka boys predict when they won`t make the sheet and often predict how many m/m they will lose by.
There are very few birds being out of Kingston,the bulk of the birds are from the port hope and Peterborough area so you'll have to adjust yourcalculations.
I await your explanation..
Mike another way of putting it is if the westerly winds have no effect then why does Muskoka get beat so badly on these days...or are you going to deny that this is happening...By the way I will gladly predict these days if I fly this season!
"Side winds have minimal or no effect on the race results."
I guess Our discussion was wasted if this is the logical conclusion.
That's like saying''' because some light headwind days have better velocities than still air days proves that headwinds don't affect pigeons at all.
We would be much better off as a group if we accepted what wind does to pigeons or flocks of pigeons, and then tried to study the ways that the pigions manage to minimize the wind effects.
Side winds. Matter of strength. More force more effect. Light winds then ..well minimal effect. A heavier than air object has to put out more power to achieve the same result in windy weather than in calm weather, if it is going into the wind, or affected by the wind. A strong wind requires a strong pigeon or maybe just a smarter pigeon. Some birds just plug home in a headwind. Other birds use it to their advantage. Smarter ones.
Again depends on winds velocity that affects the birds. Just logical.
It's common sence is what it is. You nailed it very nicely Spuggs and that's all there is to it.
Of course side winds affect pigeons...however one lofts sidewind is another lofts quarter wind..
Weather changes. First pic last night second pic Sunday morning. Screwed up will try and re-size
What do you think?
For a while I have talked with a friend about promoting our sport in his magazine. He publishes a popular Recreation Vehicle (RV) information magazine. Tonight he suggested something I think would be great. They try to program-interesting trips for their readers. A very unique thing could be done where a trip is called “A Racing Pigeon Circuit” What it would be is a trip across the US or Canada that would end on race day at lofts in different areas of the country. The entire trip would be mapped out for them covering sites of interest on the journey and ending that week at a race loft to see birds home from a race. The question is how many would be willing to participate?
Please Let me know what you think folks.
I am not sure if the AU has already thought of this, but perhaps in a combined effort with the IF (and others) a television commercial could be made. Out here I see quite a few commercials for Alpacas (Llama like thing).
Not many people in the US can raise Alpacas legally, certainly not in any City, yet I see the commercial fairly often. They don't even have a utility purpose, like a horse. Yet the advertisement is a relatively high-quality effort. Maybe it's privately funded by a single ranch, but it seems more cooperative.
A national spotlight may do the sport some good. Might be expensive, but the AU/IF/NPA/?? team could do it.
The best way to keep a sport is to have as many people involved in it as possible. Today's promotion dollars might save future legal dollars.