Hey guys,

I'm getting ready to buy my clock and wanted to find out if anyone is using the express model?

If so are you happy with it? I would like to obviously spend as little as possible however I don't want to regret it after the season starts.
Thanks.

Mark

By Billytaylor (64.221.9.147 - 64.221.9.147) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 01:16 pm: Edit

Termite Minneville can get you an Atis Tops reconditioned for about the same price as a new Express. Both the Tops and Express are used in our club with no problems, but the Tops can give a print out of training and can handle more birds and is easier to work with. My thoughts only. Many other good eclocks around also. Just make sure club system can handle the other clocks. Lets race. Bye BillyT

By Mreyesign (198.81.26.71 - 198.81.26.71) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 01:29 pm: Edit

The cheapest clock in the long run is one that lasts and remains reliable. Benzing and STB are 2 names that are synonymous with these things like Rolex, Omega, Tissot and Bulova. Top quality at an affordable price. You don't have to buy the Patec Philippe of clocks. From what I hear the ATIS is as good as any. Just my 2c worth.

By Mikev (142.141.103.170 - 142.141.103.170) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 02:34 pm: Edit

Hi Termite

Buy whatever system your current club is using. Two systems in the same club causes twice the work and is an abuse of the good nature and hard work of the club officials.

By Termite (35.9.89.33 - 35.9.89.33) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 02:41 pm: Edit

My club uses the Atis Tops system so that is what I'm looking at.

BillyT,

How do I contact Minneville? I'm interested in the reconditioned deal. Thanks.

Mark

By Mreyesign (198.81.26.71 - 198.81.26.71) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 03:17 pm: Edit

That's an excellent point I overlooked Mike. Thanks.

Termite Edds phone No is 1 800 437 4436. Chas Siegel's.

By Myron (205.188.208.104 - 205.188.208.104) on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 05:07 pm: Edit

http://www.pecosvalleyrpc.com/Pigeon%20Supply.htm

TERMITE THIS MIGHT HELP

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 02:15 am: Edit

Tops ....... but what people can aford.....!
I think not Bob .... Should be what People are made to afford, I think!
I'd say without even thinking that 2/3rds of all clocks over here are bought second hand. more than once too I'd wager. ... And that's not counting the borrowed or club own ones used throughout nigh EVERY club ..... !

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 04:21 am: Edit

Any way this about sums it it .... especially if you was a pigeon fancier . or worse still, still are lol.

ONE TRUE LOVE

The little old couple walked slowly into McDonalds one cold winter evening. They looked out of place amid the young families and young
couples eating there that night. Some of the customers looked admiringly at them. You could tell what the admirers were thinking.
"Look, there is a couple who has been through a lot together, probably for 60 years or more!"
The little old man walked right up to the cash register, placed his order with no hesitation and then paid for their meal. The couple took a
table near the back wall and started taking food off of the tray. There was one hamburger, one order of french fries and one drink. The little old man unwpped the plain hamburger and carefully cut it in half. He placed one half in front of his wife. Then he carefully counted out the french fries, divided them in two piles and neatly placed one pile in front of his wife.
He took a sip of the drink, his wife took a sip and then set the cup down between them. As the man began to eat his few bites of hamburger
the crowd began to get restless. Again you could tell what they were thinking. "That poor old couple. All they can afford is one meal for the
two of them." As the man began to eat his french fries one young man stood and came over to the old couples table. He politely offered to buy another meal for the old couple to eat. The old man replied that they were just fine.
They were used to sharing everything. Then the crowd noticed that the little old lady hadn't eaten a bite. She just sat there watching her husband eat and occasionally taking turns sipping the drink. Again the young man came over and begged them to him buy them something to eat. This time the lady explained that no, they were used to sharing everything together.
As the little old man finished eating and was wiping his face neatly with a napkin the young man could stand it no longer. Again he came
over to their table and offered to buy some food. After being politely refused again he finally asked a question of the little old lady, "Maam,
why aren't you eating. You said that you share everything. What is it that you are waiting for?"
She answered................................. "The teeth."!

By Jeff (24.84.133.255 - 24.84.133.255) on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 09:48 am: Edit

1000 Saturdays ... The older I get, the more I enjoy Saturday mornings. Perhaps it's the quiet solitude that comes with being the first to rise, or maybe it's the unbounded joy of not having to be at work. Either way, the first few hours of a Saturday morning are most enjoyable.

A few weeks ago, I was shuffling toward the kitchen with a steaming cup of coffee in one hand and the morning paper in the other. What began as a typical Saturday morning turned into one of those lessons that life seems to hand you from time to time. Let me tell you about it.

I turned the volume up on my radio in order to listen to a Saturday morning talk show. I heard an older sounding chap with a golden voice. You know the kind, he sounded like he should be in the broadcasting business himself.

He was talking about "a thousand marbles" to someone named "Tom." I was intrigued and sat down to listen to what he had to say.

"Well, Tom, it sure sounds like you're busy with your job. I'm sure they pay you well but it's a shame you have to be away from home and your Family so much. Hard to believe a young fellow should have to work sixty or seventy hours a week to make ends meet. Too bad you missed your daughter's dance recital."

He continued, "Let me tell you something Tom, something that has helped me keep a good perspective on my own priorities."

And that's when he began to explain his theory of a "thousand marbles."

"You see, I sat down one day and did a little arithmetic. The average person lives about seventy-five years. I know, some live more and some live less, but on average, folks live about seventy-five years."

"Now then, I multiplied 75 times 52 and I came up with 3900 which is the number of Saturdays that the average person has in their entire lifetime. Now stick with me Tom, I'm getting to the important part."

"It took me until I was fifty-five years old to think about all this in any detail," he went on, "and by that time I had lived through over twenty-eight hundred Saturdays. I got to thinking that if I lived to be seventy-five, I only had about a thousand of them left to enjoy."

"So I went to a toy store and bought every single marble they had. I ended up having to visit three toy stores to roundup 1000 marbles. I took them home and put them inside of a large, clear plastic container right here in my workshop next to the radio. Every Saturday since then, I have taken one marble out and thrown it away."

"I found that by watching the marbles diminish, I focused more on the really important things in life. There is nothing like watching your time here on this earth run out to help get your priorities straight."

"Now let me tell you one last thing before I sign-off with you and take my lovely wife out for breakfast. This morning, I took the very last marble out of the container. I figure if I make it until next Saturday then God has blessed me with a little extra time to be with my loved ones......

"It was nice to talk to you Tom, I hope you spend more time with your loved ones, and I hope to meet you again someday. Have a good morning!"

You could have heard a pin drop when he finished. Even the show's moderator didn't have anything to say for a few moments. I guess he gave us all a lot to think about. I had planned to do some work that morning, then go to the gym. Instead, I went upstairs and woke my wife up with a kiss. "C'mon honey, I'm taking you and the kids to breakfast."

"What brought this on?" she asked with a smile. "Oh, nothing special," I said. " It has just been a long time since we spent a Saturday together with the kids. Hey, can we stop at a toy store while we're out? I need to buy some marbles."


HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND AND MAY ALL SATURDAYS BE SPECIAL AND MAY YOU HAVE MANY HAPPY YEARS AFTER YOU LOSE ALL YOUR MARBLES.

By Termite (198.92.74.159 - 198.92.74.159) on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 10:31 pm: Edit

Bad news.....


Ah well, just talked to Ed today, Used system cost about $650 and New on website is $695.....Ed said due to US dollar sitting on the crapper he can't honor the $695 price for a new system....

Just venting....Can't afford one...don't know what I'm going to do, I can't be here to clock every race ( I would be if I could)....LOL

Guess it is good I don't care about average speed.



Mark

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 05:37 am: Edit

Sorry for you Mucker... but two things are a cert! One via not bothering with 'Averages' you may well save some poor bird(s) a trial(s) that they could well be ill prepared for. I personally believe when the loft is on song the rest follows automaticaly and everything else is a welcome bonus only.
2. I Bet you'll find a way around this hiccup. friend, Family workmate etc. AND it may well be that as such an uninterested person(s) becoming interested.
Once many have seem the simplicity of trapping they quickly join in. A stall trap with a simple release is great for novices to operate.... !
Good luck mucker.
On another theme The cost there may be a little too high at present - which your honesty here does you proud, highlights a big problem here.
Here the pro ET'S arguement would be silly things like. WEER Just Cut down on the beer.... or I bet he can afford... something! because EVERY ONE can afford it IF they really want to !!! crap.
Now as I have stated before 60% here are using second hand claocks at least!
Over 50% - I would / will wager - never actually ever own a new clock!
And $1300 Canadian dollars - £650 I think of hand - here would cause a whole lot of young family wifes to put the cabbosh on their hubbie's Racing. It would see the retirement of many 'Ole Boys' who are just enjoying and waiting the time out... Whether or not that could afford it, they wouldn't! But most couldn't anyway I dare state. There again it would again be detrimental in that scenario in it' self wouldn't it!
The added cost it's self is and MUST be - in real terms - a detrimental reason for many not taking up the sport in the first place Etc. Etc.
I could afford one. But like I say for the above reasons and many more the ET. IS and will be fought against hard and long here... REGARDLESS of all it's wonderful aspects and good things. Most which I personally agree to.
Now I believe that any one over here that wishes to purchase one, and use it for personal rerasons to train and such GREAT good luck to them and they can do that here NOW and some do...

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 05:47 am: Edit

But the Money boys will have pushed it through here regardless within 2/3 years at most I'll wager.
Will lose regardless of 'Won't Scenario's' 15000 - 20000 flyers who will actually race.
Now the 'Handicap theme of 17 seconds per bird won't work above 2 years tops - if it gets in at all- as that would quickly be deemed unfairas 'I've got one.. so should he and why should I be handicapped. that's a year later if and when it is passed. which it will be.
The fact that they can't or won't and the sweeteners used to get it about will quickly be forgotten... And you know that is the most appalling and detrimental of realism of those that 'Have and Can afford. Theier Selfishness in the highest.

By Mikev (142.141.103.170 - 142.141.103.170) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 08:49 am: Edit

Hi Roly

I agree. The only thing, we can't stop at a 17 second handicap. Is it fair that seasoned "pros" get to race against novices. I suggest that the only fair thing is to add a one minute handicap for every year one has competed. Also, many can afford to buy expensive breeding stock and others are forced to get by on local hand me downs. It is only fair that we add a one second handicap for every dollar paid for either parent and half a quarter second for every dollar paid for any grand parent of a winning bird. Those stall traps you talk about. Unfair. Some trap through a sputnik or drop hole and have to catch the bird before clocking. I would recommend a 4 second handicap for a stall trap. Now we have the problem of those that race out of a second story window. Their bird has 10 less feet to drop to the landing board. That is another second. And what about those with a loft man. That is an unfair advantage. We need to add at least an hour handicap for that disadvantage. What about those that are retired? They are free to spend the entire day with the birds. Lets add another hour to those scam artists. Of course there are those that work at a location 20 or 30 miles from home ON THE LINE OF FLIGHT!! Those, I almost want to call them cheaters, can train for free every day! Another 10 minute handicap at the very least. Yes Roly, you are on the something here. If we work together we can make this sport fair yet.

Termite, seriuosly, if an e-clock is the only way you can compete each week I would recommend this. It is going to cost you far more than $650 to race this year with shipping fees, medication, training, dues etc, etc etc. Since you are geared up and have your heart set on it, race this year for the experience and fun and time in only when you can into a borrowed clock. If there is absolutely no possible way to set aside or earn and extra $650 over the winter, take next year off of racing and save your flying fees to put toward an e-timer. You are than set for life. I use to work Saturdays before the advent of e-timing and there is nothing more frustating. It was a constant source of disappointment and stress. I was earning $1.50 an hour and if I had to troll the ditches for 6 hours a night picking up bottles, I would have had an e-timer if one was available. They are a god sent to the hobby and if anything is going to restore the numbers to the hobby of the hay days of the 50's and 60's, it will be e-timing.

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 09:50 am: Edit

You Know Mike that the essence you posted is correct... if over stated.
So do I. THAT there cant and never wil be a level playing field. but where it can be altered, improved or SUBSTAINED to the Acepted level then I feel that the status qua must be maintained. If this means that the more able, affluent are in their views handicapped THEN yes that is a price one must accept for the vitue od being able as to those not able.
Loft man. etc, Better Locations, Breeding stock is in reality accepted as it is . for as much fanciers do conceede every day to this fact.
Now when the survey came out - THE INDEPENDANT ON COMMISSION VIA THE R.P.RA. I was a bit surprised at 17 seconds as a decent average.
But again there would and must be a common denominator somewhere...! And if it is that 3 / four birds enter together then YES as in regards that Each bird must be clocked indidually then yes it has to be 17 second between each bird.
Now as you may or may not be aware, as of this moment of time, the Pro advocators are generally in agreement that it would be as such... Why won't it be accepted? Because next year when in it WOULDN'T be accepted. But again my argument is in real terms that the cost here to too many fancier - whether realistic or not - is preceived to be too much for too many and hence losses would undoubtedly occur and follow. And of course all those where it is impractical to have one. crickey they set fire to lofts here if you win. A et. in the field unless 24 hour guarded wouldn't work on Saturday for a lot of folk. Again to get over that problem would be a lot more trouble than worth to most. So if not broken. don't fix it. And yu know for a 100 odd years. with progress I grant you, a manually operated clock has be able to give a great deal of enjoyment to a vast amount of people... Many who would pack up.. shame but when they are give out with a NHS card we will review the situation lol

By Termite (35.9.89.28 - 35.9.89.28) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 12:30 pm: Edit

Well,
Finaly we all agree on this thing...LOL!

I posted mainly out of frustration that the prices were going up as I was talking to Ed. He said, "I can't give you that price tomorrow" Honest as it was, it was very frustrating!

I have about a quarter of the cash and I have a few ideas to get the rest in the next couple of weeks before the races start.

This is the only place I can rant like this though I'd never live it down going to the club and ranting they would just make fun of me, Not like you guys...LOL I'd have to see them every week! It's all good.

Termite

By Mikev (142.141.103.170 - 142.141.103.170) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 01:10 pm: Edit

Hi Roly. Makes perfect sense to me. The only thing I would do differently is ban all cocks and just have one central club clock. Fanciers would run to the club house with their race rubbers. 4 minutes to the mile allowance for the runners and no time allowed for the bicycles.

By Mreyesign (198.81.26.48 - 198.81.26.48) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 01:31 pm: Edit

I can't believe what you just said about 17 sec Roly. What have you done to my birth place? Where is that famous British sporting spirit I grew up being told all about?

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 02:13 pm: Edit

Well isn#t that it in a 'Nut Shell' those having an advantage being 'Sporting enough' like in allowing the underdog a little lea way. Not enough to be better of course... but a little appleasement. You know throw a few scrapes under the table like from time to time.
Isn't it true, and hasn't our very nation always been famous for bending over backwards to help the 'Foriegner, the under dog - unless of course he's british -, Helping the Not so fortunate, -unless of course he is British - and the not so well 'OFF' brigade! No Bob the reality stinks. We help and bend over backwards for any and every one else.. etc. our own undr priveldged.
Criket they sure do want . AND ALWAYS get the cake and still manage to eat it.
BESIDES well is the 'What is best for the SPORT'! Element as to the Stuff you if I can.... I WILL'.
It smacks of comptemt. It is contemptable and n the name of sport let alone justice and a sense of fair play let's make it 25 seconds...!!

By Mreyesign (198.81.26.48 - 198.81.26.48) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 03:31 pm: Edit

Why not get the national flying club to finance them for you guy's at say 15% to 20% interest? I bet whatever they have in the bank at the moment isn't making that much interest? No payment made, no racing etc. Repo after 3 missed payments and name's of the bad guy's published and banned from racing for long times. There has to be a way to get them for people. By the way, I never took any more than 5 seconds to clock a bird even when we used thimbles.

By Marvin (206.154.186.232 - 206.154.186.232) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 04:23 pm: Edit

Termite, you'll love the e-clock especially when you can't be there to clock.

Roly, we have been through this before but I don't think 17 seconds is anywhere in the ball park. Maybe 3-4 seconds on the first bird and 3-4 seconds on each bird after that would be the MOST. As old and slow as I am I could do it that fast and I know others in my club are faster than I am. Of course we cheated and used the stall traps before the e-clocks. Its not hardly any advantage on the first bird except that they don't get trap shy after a few races.

By Wayne (64.12.96.70 - 64.12.96.70) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 04:47 pm: Edit

People that have the e-clocks, love them however, having an e-clock does not automaically make you a winner. The top three flyers in our club still use the manual clock. Most of our races are slower races so we don't have all the birds arriving in town at the same time. To me,the only excitement in the race is getting the bird in the trap and putting the race band in the clock. The only problem I see with the Au rule is that the bird does not have to be contained when using the e-clock.. If they would change this rule, there would be no problem. I have never had a problem with the bird being trap shy. This is something the e-clock sales people invented. As said, we have all been through this before but there is still a place for the old manual type clocks.

Wayne

By Marvin (64.21.209.192 - 64.21.209.192) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 06:24 pm: Edit

Wayne, I agree having an eclock does not make the birds winners. Even when we have super fast races and a lot of birds hit town together 4 seconds would not usually change the winner. Since I have used the eclocks for 6-7 years I can say for sure I would not feel like I was handicaped if I had to go back to using a manual clock. I would not prefer it but I would still win the same number of races when I were home to clock. I did have birds that became trap shy in the old days. Oh, I might add that further down the sheet the places might change because of eclocks because a lot of birds can be clocked very quickly with eclocks but the 1st place winners would rarely change.

By Billytaylor (64.221.8.61 - 64.221.8.61) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 07:31 pm: Edit

About the only advantage on race day I see is that should you get a bunch on the drop and they are well trained to trap you can gain a lot of Champion Loft points. Told you guys last year about 11 trapping within 7 seconds and did win Ch Loft in club.comb and assn. Agree with Wayne best first bird will win every time no matter the clock. But even more than on race day, I like them for enventory purposes and helping you identify the hot bird in your loft that week for pooling. Plus much more faster and simpler entering birds and figuring race results. Buch of time saved and no chance for errors reading a tape. Gave my STB away to a new flyer in Florida. Lets race. Bye BillyT

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 09:27 pm: Edit

Well, well, I hope that these scenario of the highs and lows of the Et aren't aimed at me... nor the majority of Brits. One thing that never ceases to amaze me is How One tries to preach to the converted... as if Yesterday never happen. I am certain that today is yesterdays' tomorrow.. and night is before, or after day probably both.
Ps Bob never more than 4/5 second to reach and time is bird, thimble or not is actually and factually a load of Bo**o**ks. And id one take thew time to pace say 10 yards, After putting down the corn tin or whatever, Open a door, shut a door, and catch a bird then take of it's rubber, and time it in and says they never took longer than 4/5 seconds is ludicriss... or a very poor memory.
And 17 sec is just a decent average.. many take longer.

By Marvin (64.21.209.192 - 64.21.209.192) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 09:55 pm: Edit

Roly, the 3/4 seconds I was talking about is comparing the stall trap with the eclock. If you are old fashioned enough to clock on the loft floor then 17 seconds may be somewhat accurate but why? A stall trap is easy and inexpensive to build. I built one when I was teenager back in 1960. I could see that clocking on the loft floor was not a good plan.

By Mreyesign (198.81.26.48 - 198.81.26.48) on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 11:15 pm: Edit

Took the words right out of my mouth Marvin. Only Problem, Stall traps do create birds that get trap shy.

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 05:01 am: Edit

Yes I agree about them being more prone to getting 'Trap Shy'., well certainly quicker.
I have found this from personal expierence. But even the open door ..... Oh but then again one wouldn't be using the open door.
So I don't think dotting I's and crosing T's is really relevant here.
The main anti's are Costs... Practability.
Safty. Over coming dogmatic rights. BUT above ALL you know it's THE 'RIGHT' to have the same rights and priveledges as every one else.... Now for many reasson here... and else where - that is not, through many reasons, feasible here yet!

By Mikev (142.141.103.170 - 142.141.103.170) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 08:58 am: Edit

Roly. Once more I agree with your trapping method. The only thing that you forgot to mention is that you must allow the bird to have a drink of water before gentlely lifting it and lovingly removing the race rubber. It is best if you leave the manual clock sitting on the kitchen table and walk back to the house to time in the rubber. Don't run as this might alarm the birds. I recommend that all my competitors adapt this method to time in, for the sake of the birds. A few other points while we are on time tested methods. The birds should be allowed 15 minutes cirling time before the "official" start or release time. That is just a good average, it likely should be more. Also, since birds home on an arc, we need to use a breaking point. These straight line or GPS measurement are just unfair. It also is of no importance to actually release the birds from the measured release point, 5 or 6 miles can make no difference, it is the same for everyone (as long as it is shorter than measured and I am the short end loft). When calculating racing using the mechanical timers that run fast and slow, forget about any variation calculations if the clcok is only 10 or 15 seconds out, what difference could that make. One other thing, this overfly issue is very over rated. We should throw out measurements all togethher and just go by the clock. That would say a ton of work. Also, no need to bother with clock seals, master timers, verification of clock readings and most important of all, never, never, check the inside counter mark number. The manufacturers only put those there as a red herring. Other examples of the money boys pulling there fast ones. Ignor the expiration dates on medications. Re-use old previously opened vaccines, use cat and dog and turkey and chick products as a choice over pigeon projects, expesially the feed. Fatting a turkey, duck or chicken as fast and cheap as possible for the table is exactly the same goal we pigeon flyers have in developing our birds into 3 and 4 year old 500 and 600 mile day birds.

Thanks for your progessive thoughts Roly. You are moving the hobby light years ahead.

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 12:03 pm: Edit

Yes Mike that is true. I never run to clock in ... ASK Billy T. nor ever will I hope. No I wouldn't recommend any thing for any fancier or competitor. I would ask though, indeed hope that when there is and where THEY have an obvious advantage, because too many can't have, nor are able, that they DO Not take the PISS, but GIVE them their just dues. Indeed be man enough and have the common decency to allow for the decrepances of those less fortunate. Indeed not take the piss and add insult them for their not being able to, nor add unwanted strife to raise and keep a happy harmony in their young married lives etc. ... without having to resort to bullying and degrading tactic to achieve their own unmeriteous awards and advantages BECAUSE they CAN!.. Well as they can't. Also allow the older ones the respect they have earnt in this sport via not making them feel a lower, uncared for part of society. MANY did not have the chance, let alone the oppertunity to save, put away that nest egg. let alone take out a pension that was practically unheard of in their day!
I would think the fortunate would be only too pleased to be more than fair, for as the ET. does make them fly faster, nor does it make the flyer any slower.
If I am at any meeting, discussion where any one even raised the point of 'They Can if they Really wanted too' senario I would quickly tell them that that is not truth. Might explain 22 different reason why that is not so. just might, but they would certainly know I was there. But let me solemanly swear and indeed promise for it is a forgone fact if any one in my presence or is near whether at a meeting of whatever rank, they raise a or tried to put over that they feel something else is more important that raising the cash to get a ET clock I will wipe the floor with them. Make no mistake about that! I'd give them such a battering that the next of kin wouldn't be able to recognise them. FOR IT IS nothing other that a degrading aspect to enhance one own selfish wants, desires at a lesse off expence.
Other than that Mike your spouting a load of 'Bo**ocks' I know it and you know it. You say YOU couldn't at one time afford. So that makes it all right now to belittle and try to intimidate others to encumber hardships that YOU WOULDN'T, couldn't do, to endure, for not only didn't you have the BALLS to do so your selve, but went without, couldn't even get a friend / family to help.. golly you must have been popular!. Mind if your last posts and attitude of elf ignorance is anything to go bye then it isnt really suprising is it? Oh it's fine and easy now isn't it! Now that your family has grown up, Now that you CAN afford it. Bully for you and 'Stuff you Jack' Ttme now is it Mike.
Wished you had the balls to make you family go without... But you didn't did you.. you carried on working. How many took the piss OUT of you Mike because you couldn't aford or because you put your family first!!! No One! WELL Not enough for if anyone had you would be a little more discerning in your memories. So what Says I - Mike- I suffered but you needn't ... Let the FAMILY SUFFER instead.
No I haven't ever bought - like a hell of a lot more - Priced pigeons. I again have never even thought about charging let alone done it.
80% of us fanciers don't buy birdsunless a few do at the breeder buyer sales. We make do with cast off and hand me downs. We have second hand clocks. why? Not because they are better, no! Because that is what the majority can afford and live in peace with them selves and families.
One perhap two training baskets. YES SECOND hand or self made. Shared travelling and training. or no trainimng. These are just a few facts that even those it involves don't like admit too.That sill pride before the fool.. not really just pride. More owe the subs till final deadline arrives than pay before. Some YES many even pay in installments. Excuse 'Don't miss it - or wife don't notice - scenario instead of I can afford it in one throw. Much much more is hidden and a lot more ignore as those that are able blantantly push forward with whimsical sacastic inuendo's to brow beat the less well of to fall into their way of thinking. their own wants and desires.
And does one really think they would / could suttely insult thoise in my company. their balls woul come off matey and the nearest they'd ever get to them again would be if I could sow them in their mouths.

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 09:06 pm: Edit

And that is a fact!

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 09:19 pm: Edit

Ps I really think that MikeV has lost it. I fear his marbles are more than loose and his reasoning is gone to pot. Sorry Billy I fear he is for the straight jacket. Never have I seen such bubbling stupidity here on site. and there sure has been some as all can attest to, But Mike has lost it and doesn't know it ... poor f**ker.

By Marvin (64.21.209.192 - 64.21.209.192) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 09:34 pm: Edit

Roly, let me share with you an advantage of eclocks that you probably never thought about. One of our new members (funny you think eclocks will run them off) had to work on the day of one of our biggest races in our club. He did not have an eclock. So one of our members who has an eclock volunteered to let his eclock clock his own birds and went and manually clocked for the new member. The new member won the race because of the eclock and did not even have one.

By Baetensd (134.58.253.129 - 134.58.253.129) on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 09:51 pm: Edit

we are in the middle of our first season of using the EC for all distances higher than 300 km(it has been approved before but only for longer distances and not whithout clocking a control gummi band too )
so far in our combine : let's estimate that more or less 50% of the birds are basketed electronically, 50% with gummis ... and so far it has been more or less the same in the race results (including 1th spots).
Before the start of the season, there have been vivid discussions between people who were going to use it and people not going to use it ... either for financial reasons or other reasons.
now all realize:
- EC won't make you win a race if you wouldn't before EC
- If you would have won the race before EC , you still will win it now ...
the middle distance season is 3 races far (should have been a lot more without avian influenza problems) and all the discussions are gone ...

the negative point of EC is just as Roly says: financials ... and to be honest: I can't understand why EC material is so expensive !! ... it is not state of the art electronics so if a national organization would play it smart i guess it could be available for a lot less than it is now ...

beside that i have seen good things of EC too : some older fanciers who were afraid of it at first now cherish it and find a renewed source of motivation in it ...
and even one of our young members decided to give up smoking so he can buy it next year without having to give up anything really important for it ( he smoked a packet a day ... which is, if i am correct cause i don't smoke, around 5 euros a day here ... this will give him next year an EC system and a very nice amount of pocket money to spend on his family ;-) and the loss of a habit that his health won't mind )

the discussion of compensation time has also been applied here ... personally i wouldn't mind ... (the exact amount of seconds has to be precised though : for example 17 seconds might be good for young birds , it might be too much for old widowers entering trough a window ... so more complicated rules seem to be the only way to go if they choose for compensation seconds)

to end: a little story of the last years of racing of my greatgranddad: although he has been very competitive untill the age of 90 ... the last years of his racing he wasn't the fastest clocker in the club to say ... he needed at least 10 seconds more as the average fancier and if he dropped the gummi band, it took him a lot more time to find it back and sometimes he needed our help in finding the gummi altough he didn't like it at all that he needed our help in clocking his birds ... (pride you know)
but did i hear in all those years one suggestion about giving compensation seconds to old fanciers that needed a lot more time to clock or fanciers (young or old) that were physically disabled and therefore needed a micracle to win a race on a short distance ... NO i didn't and that's sad isn't it ?
i still remember that the first rumours about EC were around and he asked me if he would be able to use it and how on earth such thing would work ... after a bit of explanation he said "i hope they allow it very soon here" unfortunately he hasn't lived long enough to try it out... but i am sure he would have liked it ...

greetz,
D

By Mreyesign (198.81.26.48 - 198.81.26.48) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 04:04 am: Edit

Well that's a point I never thought about.?????????

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 04:36 am: Edit

Marvin like most you fail to grasp and appreciate the Gist. No one says anything bad about the ET and it's merits... To do so would, as I have so often repeated, be stupid. It is and will be a boom to racing. Now the hardest thing, for you and just about every one else on this site to accept any and every time this subject is raised IS THAT no - one is against the fine wonderful ET timers. No one argues about their ability, nor their advantages as a whole to ALL! They are great....... why can't folk see the other issue that is raised? Oh sorry you all do.... but as ever you all seem to choose to ignore it.
And Big D, Bob and the rest of you, remember Jed Jackson...! I don't think in ethics he wants the Et. ... I have seen his write ups and am sure he is anti. A great flyer of course and a National winner etc. WHICH he timed in all by him self.

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 04:39 am: Edit

Big D. do you still have to also clock in manually at the distance etc. like you were having to. or is ALL that been scraped now?

By Marvin (64.21.209.192 - 64.21.209.192) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 06:25 am: Edit

Roly, you are correct I can't see any problems with using eclocks. I have seen them used along side of manual clocks and the same birds win the races as before. If mine would break and I had to use a manual clock I would not feel I was handicaped except for how I use it for training and inventory. What I can't understand is where you and David B. come up with thinking that the 17 seconds is anywhere close. People who use stall traps must kill you guys on the races. I could easily clock manually in a stall trap within 3-4 seconds of the eclock...easily and I am old and slow. I can't immagine anyone still clocking on the floor of the loft. That went out back when I was a teenager after my first year of racing over 40 years ago. I don't think that comparison is valid in any way. Anyone who still clocks on the floor of the loft would be at a real disadvantage in our club. And that has nothing to do with the eclocks.

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 06:43 am: Edit

You and me both Marvin see no problem in using ET clocks... Like I say they will be the boom... so you are in agreement with me there at least.

By Mikev (142.46.55.74 - 142.46.55.74) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 09:23 am: Edit

Roly. Now you have me really confused. You had convinced me that e-clocking was evil, that imposing my sport on friends and family was far superior to investing in the tool that would allow me to do the job myself. Now you are saying that e-timing is a boom to the sport? I guess it is my lost marbles causing the confusion.

By Termite (198.92.74.152 - 198.92.74.152) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 09:44 am: Edit

This discussion is getting out of hand...LOL.

Roly,
Maybe I'm wrong here but I don't think you understand why I want an EC. I don't expect it to make me an instant success, I don't want it for bragging rights. The reality is I'm busy, sometimes durring races I'll be taking care of my daughter (infinetly more important than the races!) And I may miss birds because of feeding or changing diapers or some other duty that is far more important than clocking a pigeon. However, I work hard with my birds, I'm with them every day, clean the loft every day, train everyday, just as most of you do. I think I owe it to them to be able to clock them in when they come home, in addition, if I miss birds due to other obligations I will never realy know how I'm doing as a handler.

Now no one can argue that they are not cost prohibitive, they are very expensive. I will most likely find a way to get one before races start, however I have to admit before I started college and worked a regular full time job, there is no way I would be able to get one. Now I have student loans and side projects that I can get some fiscal relief from.

One other reason that I want an EC. There are many standard clocks for sale all over, in my club, combine, and over the internet at very decent prices. However if anyone buys a standard clock now they can figure on using it for a conversation piece on the mantel in a year or two because no one will buy it when they decide to move to EC. It is a very bad investment.

Later

Mark

By Wayne (205.188.208.104 - 205.188.208.104) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 11:22 am: Edit

Mark- In your case, the e-clock is the thing to buy. They are especially good if you work shift work, are disabled or have kids that you have playing ball, etc. I am retired and have none of these problems. Not sure how much longer I will be flying and don't what to invest in an e-clock plus the 2.00 e-bands. If I were younger and just starting out, I would buy one. My manual works fine and do my share of winning.

Wayne

By Mikev (142.46.55.104 - 142.46.55.104) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 12:56 pm: Edit

Wayne and Mark, it sounds like you are aligned with Roly's "Money Boys" lol.

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 01:52 pm: Edit

Termite Investment is a no no and no go in any hobby or sport, especially pigeons. Yes I grant you that there are those that may money etc. . Full stop. The rest of us, indeed more than the vast majority are just happy to indulge in the sport. Now I see that the best way for you to go is Borrow a ET.. till you can get one of your own. Many clubs even cater for - or should - for your very scenario.
And lets be honest here the Et. is here, it can do the job when both you are at home or away.
Now say a convetional clock set you back ... if one can't be borrowed, You are looking at the cost that, say $80 that could go towards your ET. I personally would took fly just get the cheapest and adequate one I could and FLY.. the other will come.
Mike I have never ever said or suggested that the ET clock was evil. Nor that it was a good thing in it's self, having many good and valid concepts with it. Progress no it is not for in reality at days end it does the same as a manuel or any other clock.. times birds in full stop! Spo no progress there.

I have unlike the majority here, accepted their arrive sooner than later... That being purely for the money boys and profits, again full stop.
The actualy cost and hurt to the sport they will like you completely ignore and care not. even lying that it is progress. A betterment yes. Progress of course not.

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 01:58 pm: Edit

And Termite I understand why you want. also why 99% of people would want one. that's is after all the simple bit. So even I can see that

By Mikev (142.46.55.95 - 142.46.55.95) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 07:26 pm: Edit

Sorry Roly. I thought that you predicted that untold thousands will quit the sport the day e-timing is accepted. I guess I mistook that for you coming out against e-timing, all considered.

By Marvin (64.21.209.192 - 64.21.209.192) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 07:33 pm: Edit

Roly, I thought that David B. said they could clock from the distance but not the sprints. But now they are beginning to use them on the shorter races. I think they still have to clock the countermark in a manual clock for verification.

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 07:52 pm: Edit

No you didn't get that wrong MikeV... that is the point they will........ But seems - as I have being trying to explain for 3 years now - that is the 'Something' you can't get your head around. Like I keep posting the clock it's self is not the issue....... Must have stated that b100's of times. The credits and uses are not an issue, nor the fact that it merits -I believe to be able to be used every where. But that is not viable not practical here.... Hence for several reasons it will cost the sport a great deal. thousands becoming non flyers. Hence why I'll never race with one. Train perhaps with one yes...

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 07:53 pm: Edit

Termite over here they are practically trying to give them away .... and prices are more than half any where in the states...

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 07:57 pm: Edit

Same thought applies. question Marvin.
Again it is a nice thin end of the wedge to get it accepted. But the cost is an issue there also, and I think it is well below half price there too. I'm sure it is. Still the states etc. can afford to subsidise the poor european counter parts lol.

By Marvin (64.21.209.192 - 64.21.209.192) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 08:11 pm: Edit

Roly, some in our club can't afford an eclock or choose not to buy one. But that does not stop them from winning. So what difference does it make if some use the eclocks and some don't? But then we have been down this road before. Here is another question: Seriously don't you guys use stall traps?

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 10:16 am: Edit

Seriosly many Do. I do mostly.
No Cock in itself means that you use will win or lose a race...! But in close races when there are umpteen hitting their' lofts at the same time, different trapping and clocking systems certainly have their benefits and m and play their' part! OR WHY INDEED BOTHER TO HAVE THEM / MERIT THEIR COSTS? It's like putting two rubbers in the same thimble... could mean instead of being 1st and prehaps 4th, BEING 7th and 12th is THE more likely OUTCOME. Now in many races here it is seconds between the 1st 20/30 odd, you telling me that the slickness of the trap is not important, No of course not, Indeed only a fool would argue that! That is why have been down this road a lot of times too and the benefits of the ET timer. So the simple answer to 'What difference does it make'? is of course is a bloody lot.
Hence in the Brits renoun sense of 'Fair Play' it remains in the main with up to 80% still with anti feeling here... 'So costly to the sport! It is the SIMPLE FACT that each and every member should be entitled to the same rights and priviledges as any one else. Now the fact remains that not all are able to have them for many reasons, BESIDES THE COSTS!!! hence the fairest and best way is FOR NO ONE has them. Now that is the fairest way SURELY and the 'Bully for me and stuff you Jack' attitude stinks. It's the worst kind of selfishness their is. I had a right go the other day at a guy, quite nice fellow really, but a blunt ignorant Millionaire who's came close to getting a slap - but other things took referance - His arguement being 'Well if I afford one why shouldn't I be entitled too THATS my right!.....' Now knowing full well that many can't etc. and WHY that is very selfish attitude! Him saying 'Well it would help in training' could well be relevant so 'Good' says I 'Go and buy a bugger for training, no problems here or any where else for that matter.......' But very few spout that and ACTUALLY go and get one... Strange that!
But like I say the 'Money boys' with a vested interest won't and can't accept and will and have/do forever chip away till they get their own way regardless ofthe actual costs to the sport, and the loss of 1,000's of flyers. They continue to bribe and pay individuals mony etc. and offer sweetners for thoes able. - Should but DON'T /DIDN'T offer the 'States 'Clocks and x numbers of rings free etc. for $300 dollars or less do they? But they should for if it's feasible to export here at that price and make money the the States should have the same priviledge. but the pretential numbers that would be sold is against them!-
HENCE we don't want it, and I'll never fly with one... regardless of all wonderful and actual attributes.

By Mikev (142.46.55.77 - 142.46.55.77) on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 12:07 pm: Edit

Hi Roly. So you have stated that e-timing will be a boom for the hobby on the one hand and drive thousands to quit on the other hand. Are you saying that forcing thousands to quit the hobby is a boom to the hobby?

By Termite (198.92.74.149 - 198.92.74.149) on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 12:09 pm: Edit

By investment I just meant if I want to sell it down the road I'd rather sell it than burn it....
Not to make money.

Roly,
1/2 the price? I'll send you the cash if you'll send me a clock...LOL



Mark

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 03:21 pm: Edit

Plus P & P
besides Bill B is coming over now I bet he could bring one back. I don't know the good from the bad or what is allowed etc. But sure could sort out,
Mike Yes you has the sad scenario.
Well many will quit yes etc. and it will be call down the line 'The Savior' etc. and a boom.. even progress I bet. WAGER 5 TO ONE!

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 03:27 pm: Edit

Plus P & P
besides Bill B is coming over now I bet he could bring one back. I don't know the good from the bad or what is allowed etc. But sure could sort out,
Mike Yes you has the sad scenario.
Well many will quit yes etc. and it will be call down the line 'The Savior' etc. Yas and DOWN THE LINE A BIT Our / A boom... even progress I bet. WAGER 5 TO ONE!
Sad really. like Buisnesses throwing thousands out of work to make it more 'Better' - cost effective and saving future jobs, more competative etc. and calling that progress and better.... pruned for beterment But the ones sacked aren't readily in agreement I suppose but then that's buisness... and in this game it is needless , but will happen. Short sightedness for the betterment of the few and able I guess. Selfish Barstards I called them.

By Mikev (142.141.103.170 - 142.141.103.170) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 09:08 am: Edit

Bill B is a Director of the Canadian Racing Pigeon Union and I believe that he is responsible for rules, so yes, he should be able to pick out a good clock for Termite. Remember Bill, no continuous running round Toulets. Good clocks, but no longer legal in Canada, and I assume the US.

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 11:52 am: Edit

Now that will do ... if you can't find the 'Solar Clock'//////1

By Baetensd (134.58.253.129 - 134.58.253.129) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 12:17 pm: Edit

yes Roly,
at the distance you still have to clock in manually too ... things haven't changed :
either you use EC and then manually the gummi band within 5 minutes or the EC time doesn't count (within these 5 minutes you also have to call your club with the number that is imprinted on the gummi)
if you don't use EC, all is the same except that you also clock the first gummi band manually too.

Marvin, is a stall trap a sputnik in which the birds jump in and then they are locked there till you release them after you got the gummi ?
if so, yes they are used here ... have been used a lot more years ago but not a lot nowadays ... the people who used them didn't like the fact that some yb's got too scared by it after 5-10 races ... For old birds, they have never been used ... i think the fastest option there is an open window ...

By Mreyesign (198.81.26.48 - 198.81.26.48) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 01:08 pm: Edit

Baetensd. The stall trap is one which uses 4" wide entry holes and bob wires which can be locked to stop entry and stall the bird.

They were originally used by the American Army signal corps in the second world war hence the name. It is also called the Yanky trap or the Bob trap.

Like the sputnic trap, birds still get trap shy with them and I know I would have won many more races and high positions if it hadn't been such a diffcult problem.

The E/C is by far the fastest and best way to clock pigeons. I believe it's the best thing to ever come down the pike after sliced bread.

By Marvin (64.21.209.192 - 64.21.209.192) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 02:43 pm: Edit

David B. I thought Roly was just making a joke about the 17 seconds difference gained by using the Eclock until you seemed to agree with him. Then I was really confused but when he mentioned opening the door, etc. I could see he was not talking about the stall trap. With the stall trap you clock from outside the loft. The stalls are built into the entrance of the loft and the birds go through them every day with the bobs unlocked but on race day they are locked and as they jump down into the individual stall they are captive. The fancier is under the landing board and you just reach up and pull the countermark off their leg and put it into the clock. You have a release lever to unlock the bobs and the bird gets released and enters the loft. The bird is only in the stall 1 or 2 seconds so most birds do not get trap shy like Wayne said. A few do but usually because you get a lot of birds at one time and they are "stuck" in the stall for a while you are taking the countermarks off the others. If you would get 20 birds on a drop and it took 3 seconds to clock each one it would take 60 seconds to clock them all. I used a 4 stall trap but some had 10 or 15 stalls and had 2 or 3 people clocking to get them all done quicker. With this method the first bird would be clocked about 3 seconds slower than the eclock. That would be the time to pull off the countermark, put it into the capsule, and drop in clock and turn handle.

By Mreyesign (198.81.26.48 - 198.81.26.48) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 02:50 pm: Edit

Marvin I saw a major race in the FVC where they had 58 birds clocked in 1 min using the Junior thimbless clocks. If you loose three seconds in this club you end up on the second sheet???

By Marvin (64.21.209.192 - 64.21.209.192) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 03:07 pm: Edit

Mreyesign, wow, that is fast. I would guess they had two people clocking. Without capsuls it would speed it up. Let me also guess that it was two girls clocking? My mom used to be able to clock a lot faster than I did. Anyhow that is a good example of how fast the stall traps work. Just pull countermarks and drop in clock. Also how many clocks were they using? Another question...I thought you were talking of one loft getting 58 in 60 seconds but maybe you were talking about the club?

By Mikev (142.141.103.170 - 142.141.103.170) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 03:30 pm: Edit

David B. If I am using open window and you are using a stall trap and our lofts are side by side and we both get five birds on the drop and both sets of birds trap normally, you are 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th in the race and I am 6th to 10th. That is how much faster the stall trap is compared to the open window. Trap slyness is possible without a proper set up or proper training, but that is also true with the open window. Scare the bird once too often and watch it circle the loft and than land in the neighbours tree.

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 03:49 pm: Edit

Open loft is not practical / couldn't be use for ET clocking - I refer of course the the 'Paid Report. commissioned by the R.P.R.A. of course.
I have never clocked in my life via the stall trap in under 5 seconds 'Tops' the second bird or whatever. To realistically think this is possible is a myth edged and clouded by time.
Also when you get 11 / 12 drop together then that is the beginning of the end of the Birds Confidence and they quickly have BECOME trap shy.
Also with the stall trap use after a feww racess you seldom if ever get Two let alone more trying to trap at the same time. Also when you arrive to reach up and take the rbber after the 2/3 week you will see the rest sitting on the gutters looking down at you. they don't come in till you release the trap and allow them through. They know. Hence 2nd onwards birds are trap INSIDE the loft ONE AT A TIME for again they quickly know they are next to be clocked in. Race Day they soon know that day. Hence one again sees the merit of the ET. Clocks and even more so why we are so anti because of it's unfairness to those that CAN'T for whatever reason have it installed.
So again one Has to move out and away or hide in loft or whatever......... 17 seconds in and out for the 3rd bird is more than a rarity of fast clocking even with the stall trap THEY JUST down clamber in too many times afer the first one!
I stall trap my first mostly and then ALL other traps are completely opened. clocked if bothered inside the loft. OTHER wise it gets worse and worse till you can have real bad trappers. Hence they are only once in a while clocked via the stall trap.. mostly if and when first home.

By Marvin (64.21.209.192 - 64.21.209.192) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 04:09 pm: Edit

Roly, now that is really "trap shy". I was thinking of 1 or 2 seconds hesitation before trapping. I guess I'll go back with Wayne and say I never had a trap shy bird compared to what you describe. My main problem was having them stand on top of each other in the stall and two go through together when opened and miss clockin the 2nd one. I clocked them all via the stall trap. It would be no problem to use eclocks and open loft together. I designed my son's loft so he could use open loft and stall traps. I made a drop hole "out" trap and they trapped back thru the stall trap. Or you could use a bob trap out. No problem.

By Mreyesign (198.81.26.48 - 198.81.26.48) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 04:25 pm: Edit

Roly it was only a few years ago not 30. And yes I can clock quicker than 3 seconds as can most guy's with the junior clocks. (junior is the brand name of the clock, nothing to do with junior members) They are fast and reliable but not as fast as the electric clocks. Nothing competes with them. And the most beaufifull thing about them is, you don't even have to be there.

Fact is, it's sometimes better if we are not there. I still get excited and nervous, and to anyone who thinks the birds can't sense this and get nervous because of it, your wrong.

By Mikev (142.46.55.92 - 142.46.55.92) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 05:46 pm: Edit

Hi Roly. I used stall traps for 25 years and never experienced anything like you are describing. I am not saying that I haven't had the odd poor trap, but I sure have never had to hide from my pigeons to get them into the loft. Maybe it is genetically linked to the quality of your birds that allows you to never train or race them until they are two years old and then win at 400 miles with them, "first chuck". You certainly seem to have a family of birds that are different from anything I have ever seen.

By Mreyesign (198.81.26.48 - 198.81.26.48) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 06:31 pm: Edit

O ho O ho. HMmmmmmmmmmmmmm What a great day??? Happy happy happy.

By Billytaylor (64.221.12.147 - 64.221.12.147) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 06:44 pm: Edit

Hello you muckers, I watched 3 races with Roly and he did not have a trapping problem except for the birds landing on the roof for about a second. The piker won 2 and was second on the other. He must be doing something right racing against over 12,000 birds. But I can beat him. Lets race. Bye BillyT Dont expect my bud to agree. Get me a punch in the nose.

By Mreyesign (198.81.26.48 - 198.81.26.48) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 07:00 pm: Edit

I see Larry L has now joined the ranks of the none believers of eye-sign in a big way and has shot poor old muron down in proverbial flames.

Now as if that wasn't enough, Boothy has challenged him to say where he got his information about the Belgiums hiding their best birds away from the visitors because they don't want them to see them for some off the wall reason???? I said it many times, if you give that guy enough rope he will eventually hang himself. He did. He's beyond help.

Answer all the questions Muron one at a time before they mount up too high, you have no choice.

By Baetensd (134.58.253.129 - 134.58.253.129) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 07:00 pm: Edit

Mike,

have you also used open window for old widowers for 25 years ? cause you must have had a family of birds that was afraid to 'dive' into a window from heights right into their nestbox (still one of the most prettiest things to see in the sport for me)
we have both a sputnik setup and open window for old birds and 80% of them are already sitting in their nestbox at the moment the others jump into the sputnik ... and you still think that by that time i need more time to clock one countermark than you 5 of them ? LOL ok i admit that i might be a poor clocker, after all i didn't clock more than a few thousand countermarks in my life yet, but it would be a closer game than you think ...
Remember that races here are different and to get more than 2 birds on the drop, is very rare even if you sent a lot of birds ... (considering they are released among 10.000's of others in races they never arrive in flocks at a loft)
in case you have races where dozens of birds arrive on the drop, stall traps would be nice to have ... but a lot of people who had them here, removed them again ... they are only used anymore in yb's and with the EC allowed also for middle distance now, soon they will all be gone ... cause stall traps were typical for fanciers with a lot of birds and those switch first to EC ...

Marvin, i never said that 17 seconds was my idea of compensation ... i just said that a fair compensation would have to take several things into account (old birds versus yb's ... 1st bird versus 2 birds arriving together... ) which would make it again an ultimate pain in the ass i guess LOL
by the way: we use the EC since this year and it is really fun to use ... especially on yb's since we send them in training mode (so they do the distance but are not in the race) and still we can see their arrival times and compare to the actual race ... and all of this without handling the birds ... ideal for us :-)

greetz,
D

By Baetensd (134.58.253.129 - 134.58.253.129) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 07:09 pm: Edit

Roly,

just curious,
how do they deal in England, where they don't allow EC, with fanciers that are physically disabled ?
do they give them priviledges in clocking ?
here we had a case of a young guy that needed a lot of time to clock in the countermarks due to being severly disabled ... at one point there was a suggestion that he could clock the countermarks without putting it into a capsule cause that is where he lost most of his time .. but guess what : the fanciers of his club voted a NO to this proposal cause they got afraid he might have won a race ... *g* makes one feel sad in their position ...
problem is that he races short distances and therefore can't use the EC ... which would be ideal for his situation

greetz,
D

By Marvin (64.21.209.192 - 64.21.209.192) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 08:03 pm: Edit

David B. I agree on the beauty of seeing a widower diving into the open window. I had the privilege of watching once and was impressed. The race was from the North and the loft faced East. The bird just missed the house roof by about 2 feet and turned and dove into the loft. I agree it was a beautiful sight but the fancier was not in the loft so took a lot longer to clock than if he would have had a stall trap. On the other hand I watched a 400 miler coming from 1/2 mile away and he set his sights on the landing board and came straight for the board and hit running for the stall. I had the countermark as soon as he dropped into the stall and my knee pushed the release and he hardly had to hesitate in the stall. But now I sometimes watch from the house roof and see them come and watch them zip through the eclock. Three beautiful sights.

By Mikev (142.46.55.103 - 142.46.55.103) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 09:12 pm: Edit

Hi David B. Concur with Marvin. Catching a bird, removing the counter mark, picking up the thimble, dropping it in the clock, I have three to five birds clocked by now in my stall trap. But yes, it is a pretty sight to watch them drop thru the window.

By Marvin (64.21.209.192 - 64.21.209.192) on Monday, July 07, 2003 - 10:02 pm: Edit

Mikev, thinking about that I was reminded of a "funny".....well, it is funny now. A lady flyer in our club was clocking her first race. She was clocking on the loft floor. As we all know the excitement at clocking time....well she had it and caught the bird, pulled off the countermark, and threw the bird into the wall on her way to the clock, oops. She was almost in tears but the bird was ok.

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 01:44 am: Edit

Big D. Jed Jackson is Blind.. and no he still clocks in his own birds, National winner like. Must be in his eighties now and a force still to be reckoned with.. He niether wants or advocates the Et. clocks....
MikeV perhaps I still do want many had to do in the past. where a 10 / 15 mile chuck on a bike was deemed as a Great toss for the birds. where and when transport nor money was available.
Indeed it was the races themselves that got them race fit I suppose. or was it, for many didn't or couldn't afford to end many to them eithe so of the 12 birds say they were picked for them races....... AND still homed and won first time out.
Like a hen bird will firs race sitting tight on eggs for seasons first. having only one or two 50 mile chucks.
It may where be that what is now classed as the norm is indeed not that at all. but every one goes a long with this human thought and belief scenario as if it's now regarded inhuman form.
FIT birds only can be trained to become fitter and conditioned. nothing else wins races.. a little motivation may help in the desire to home etc. and trap, but then no research has be put forward or proven via that.... it may well be something completely different. Some birds ALWAYS fly well from certain race points regardless of what Inducement is offered.
400 miles first chuk / race I've never actually done that, around the 300 miles yes, but ..........

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 06:14 am: Edit

Here is also a realist fact.
To - day as I haven't raced of trained for three weeks I decided o get a couple of 50 miles chucks in as they will be going the 500 miles this Thursday...!
Well though not raining at 5 Oclock this morning I waited as it threatened rain. At 7 15 I decided not to train asthe weather then, as now, still threatens and is overcast.
So I will forego the training ... but if not tossed they WILL STILL go to the Race on Thursday! without a chuck. Now my Youngsters haven't been tossed at all, and I would think nothing of sending them 50 miles first chuck in any weaher.. If I lose any they would only be later day culls if molly cuddled. Now why and what is the difference at to why some could go to - day Ie. the Young birds but not the Old birds? Mikev or any one.

By Louis (216.209.18.13 - 216.209.18.13) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 09:44 am: Edit

Rolly,
My uneducated guess would be "condition". You could knock the old birds out of condition for the race, whereas the young weren't being sent to a race immediately after, and or, it would just wisen them up.

By Roly (62.253.32.5 - 62.253.32.5) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 10:46 am: Edit

I think you'll fined a rhyme for 'every time' they raced and why etc. refering to what race was sent to in regards of the one that really mattered and they were being prepared for. I.e. Berwicke for Lerwicke etc. Now most 'Took a Pop' at Worksop' to get them up mand ready, Then don't react for Pontefract. Back to Worksop of course because of NEST position etc. and getting more to open a wing.
Hence picking races and not being able to afford the Training etc. they still worked wonders etc.
What is the main difference to - day....? Nothing it is still the same workers and keen ones that are doing the 'Tasks' that are winning.
In the lpoft and around it. So many say and like my mate SWEAR by systems etc. 'wewerh dey ent out en about at time wid the Widdower system are they. But Widowers seem to fly better around the loft.. MANY DON'T train them, well especially after the innitial training steps.. Natural likewise 'Are out and about the same' like ent they? If been trained and loft fit why are you wasting time and effert GAS by keeping them up the road? Inner fat!! now there is something that is debateable again....... Nah if the birds are in CONDITION for each period of time like they should be. then a couple of chucks is ample.
Now let me ask any and ALL of you. You bred for a reason some youngsters and for one reason or another one - or two - don't get trained or tossed let alone raced.
As two year old you give them to a novice, or like Myron sell them down the line to a guy, 50 - 200 miles or more away.
They break out (or more likely, though not admitted too, let out. He phones you and says . 'They are orf mucker....' What do you say? and JUST WHAT do you believe.....? Answers here please.

By Pondviewloft (66.185.85.73 - 66.185.85.73) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 03:47 pm: Edit

Roly The MOST IMPORTANT TIME IN A PIGEONS LIFE IS THE FIRST 35 DAYS A lot of us do not wein soon enough and do not spend enough time with them in that 35 days Do so and you will not have trapping problems... You will be able to pick any bird you want off the landing board without the others flying away trust trust trust is needed never chase birds off landing board put them in basket and go 25-50 yrds and let them out two three times of this and they will be flying around and know homebase(landing board) is the safest place in the world bill

By Marvin (64.21.209.192 - 64.21.209.192) on Tuesday, July 08, 2003 - 03:55 pm: Edit

Roly, I agree with you on fitness. I call it condition or form and I think we are talking about the same thing. Someday I hope to sit down and talk to you about conditioning the birds and better yet how to recognize it when it happens. I think I could learn a lot from you on that topic.