| By Baetensd on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 05:02 pm: Edit |
jim,
you are right , people go trough the trouble of making a new waterproof rule and now the new ruling is there and again it leaves space for interpretations :-) funny
greetz,
D
| By Jim on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 05:42 pm: Edit |
I am not upset at all. To me inside the loft will be taken to mean the inside of the loft as mentioned in my previous comment. Therefore the installation of a sensor in a sputnik as an example on the outside wall of a loft would be in violation. I am sure the new rule will provide additional information all I was trying to point out is a rule that is not clear will cause more problems down the road.
| By Roly on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 06:19 pm: Edit |
Jgrant.. I am staying out of this lol.
Even lofts litturaly over a wire fence on allottments have aguements each week about this one.
As the point moves around so do their distances lol. And it has been on and off a heated discussion for years. AND the mere fact that regardless of what system is used, they can only be acruact to a certain degree. AND NONE are actually acruact in the first place it would appear. Then there is the 'WHERE in the garden apisode, what if it is move over the other side. or a foot. No that will take a bit of sorting out.. not like the E/C where it should read 'All the Attenae must in a a enclosed trap INSIDE of the loft.. There sorted Job done..... or is it!
| By Bill on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 06:29 pm: Edit |
Jim G. I don't no much about GPS system's but JIM R. know's, Are they all the same in measurments as in acurecy how many feet are they good for, I thought that the measurements we have from M BROWN where accurate to what you send him from the people who come and take your loft co-ordenates. bill butterfield.
| By Jgrant on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 07:28 pm: Edit |
Roly you are correct no measurement is totally accurate but a GPS system is used in your hand in one position and is accurate to 5m or less. Measuring by a wheel, tape measure or your car to the nearest intersection can create alot of mistakes and calculation mistakes. I am totally not up to date with a GPS system but I have seen them work and they seem to be more accurate. Lets hear from someone who knows a little more about this GPS system?We use GPS in our Combine. Thanks
| By Roland_Z on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 09:54 pm: Edit |
Our Club owns a 12 channel GPS (Garmin) I own a 12 channel Magellan and three others in our club have or have access to GPS as well. in 1996 our first model averaged 22 meters + - when used against itself in multiple tests. however we found within our club that some lofts measured by Bowen's/ Mark Brown were off in some cases up to 700 meters. 22 meters is 1 second of flying time at 45 mph/75 kph.
present model of gps can be set on the same post of my deck for fourty nights in a row and always reads within 8 meters, usually about 4 meters. This is less than the length of the average loft or less than the length of the transport vehicle. My landing board is 4 meters long.
THere are so many other advantages as well:
>club boundary recognition
>master timer
>release point confirmation /reestablishment
>proof that drivers were at the proper location at the right time if you wish
>accurate sunrise and sunset FOR YOUR LOCATION
One day I wanted to know where a competitor lived. I plugged in his Bowen co-ordinates and 'navigated' to his loft. His driveway ended about 30 meters short and east of his loft with the gps reading telling me I had to go another .03 kms west. Dead on!
| By Jgrant on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 10:03 pm: Edit |
So why is the CU not allowing clubs to use the GPS measurement in race results? It's the same reason Roly you guys don't have e-clocks. Manufacturing companies that supply your accessories for racing put pressure on the overall organization. Try to surpress the growth of the pigeon sport.P.S. See I didn't say "progress"Thanks Jim
| By Brad on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 07:32 am: Edit |
To Jgrant
Good Morning Jim
I believe that the CU rules allow for use of a GPS, but they say it has to guarantee accuracy to within 5 metres. Right now systems like that are fairly expensive, but I understand there are changes being made to the GPS system and the price should come down in the near future. My own personal opinion is that even at 15 metres the GPS is more accurate than some measurements we are using now, and I am looking forward to the day when all measurements are done through GPS.
I believe Tom M posted that his club uses GPS for loft and release position, and that for one race they had to change the release point. They just took a new reading and plugged it into the race program and away they went.I'm hopefull that our club and combine will be the same one day.
| By Roly on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 08:25 am: Edit |
All In all with aspiring costs - which I don't think pigeon racing is dear at all, infact I read only 2 weeks ago that our sport ought to be a lot more expensive, and I tend to agree, if the resauces are put to good use.
This of course is in relationship to other pastimes and recreations.
So why done the Feds buy the machinary for the good of all their clubs!
Why don't all clubs chip in and have done!
If the GPS is the best and nearly accurate what's the hold up... or is it the best, most reliable.
Are Indendpendant bodies better, and do they offer the services one wants?
I feel we - like a lot of things in all walks of life - Have to accept... or do something out side of spouting.
| By Jim on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 11:06 am: Edit |
There is no doubt that a GPS does provide a more accurate measurement. Unless the loft is located by a surveyor, that takes into consideration the proper angles and changes in elevation as one measures from the entrance of a loft to the nearest intersection. The cost of doing this would far exceed the cost of a combine or club buying one GPS. The release points well that is even more of a joke I have driven to many of our combine release points. Most of these are only visited once a year and when you arrive they may no longer be accessible. So you go to the nearest suitable location and let them go. There is nothing accurate or fair about it. Some of the locations used by some combines indicate the railroad station at such and such a location a carry over from the days the birds were shipped by train. No such station remains today in its place is an apartment building or whatever. As pointed out by previous CU Directors we should drive to these locations prior to racing each year to ensure they are usable that was there suggestion instead of using a GPS. Anyone want to drive to Eastmain River today again the cost of doing so would far exceed the cost of a GPS not counting the benefit of the driver being able to select the most suitable location for reasons beyond his control and you still can have an accurate race result. "Hello" not only should they be allowed they should replace all other forms of obtaining measurements we argue about inches and seconds at this end.
| By Jim on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 11:39 am: Edit |
Hi Brad,
When the CU finally allowed the use of the GPS (after two or three years of putting this forward) you are correct they wanted a letter from the manufacturer to guarantee accuracy within 5 meters. This was after they determine there was no such product on the market. With averaging features that were available you could often be within 5 meters but sometimes 6, 7 or 8 there was and is no guarantee. Therefore if you wanted to apply the rule as written or get someone disqualified from a race that a GPS was used request the letter that would guarantee accuracy it was not obtainable. I will be honest with you I am not pleased at all when I see these types of decisions being made I look at it is a sham you can use them so they say but 5 meters was the acceptable accuracy so you can and you can't. Kind of like no decision at all as far as I am concerned. Now one final point how long is our trailer do we keep moving it to release the birds at the back within 5 meters at the release point this was and is a ridiculous point under 10 or 8 meters at the release point would far exceed anything we do today. To confirm this read any release point location, top of hill for North Bay I still can't find that location what side, what truck stop, just the fact most say parking lot behind whatever is an area far exceeding 8 meters. But the truth of the matter is we often could not get within miles of the right location for many reasons.
| By Jeff on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 01:10 pm: Edit |
Hello everyone
I don't have any idea how this GPS works, other than what I've read on this site.
But I have to agree with Jim, for the CU not accepting the GPS, unless the manufacture can guarantee it's accuracy, to be within 5 metre's, is ridicules, most, if not all release points, are out more than that, due to mans encroachment onto release points.
Explain how the GPS works?
If a race release point is taken with GPS, isn't the numbers entered into the race program, and it adjusts all the members distances according to what is entered??
If this is the case, if the GPS is out 8 metre's, wouldn't everyone's be out the same distance.
If this is the case, I'd think the CU would encourage clubs to use GPS, with a ruling that all club members be re-measured the same time. It would even it's self out for every member.
Like I said, don't know anything about GPS, just throwing out my thoughts.
Jeff
| By Jim on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 01:30 pm: Edit |
Hi Jeff,
Your correct everyone is released at the same point but the distance flown is not the same as they are measured and this effects the results, the amount that you would be out would be so small at even 10 meters with a GPS that it would have no effect on the results. When you get into a more significant distance from the release station it does have an effect. Check the article written must be over 10 years ago by Mark Brown
Release Points
http://www.comanco.com/release_points.htm
| By Wayne on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 03:12 pm: Edit |
The AU ruling on using GPS is that if one is used, the same physical piece of equiptment ( the auctual unit) must be used to obtain airline data for all lofts in the organization. This should take care of any problems.
Wayne
| By Jgrant on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 03:17 pm: Edit |
From this disscussion on GPS measuring I think the CU directors have to get their heads out of the sand and adopt this method of measurement with no restriction. All in favour. Carried
| By Bill on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 04:34 pm: Edit |
Hi Jim G...Not a very nice statement to make i for one DO NOT put my head in the sand for nobody come hell or hight water i speak my peace weather they like it or not. And your discussion so far about 10 people dosn't tell me a whole lot as of yet? still waiting and yes i do agree if measurements are not the same for every one let's get it straightend out. bill butterfield.
| By Jim on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 04:48 pm: Edit |
Hi Wayne,
I think the AU has a reasonable rule using the same piece of equipment the CU may have the same but accuracy depends even from the same unit on a lot of factors location, atmosphere etc. Still the GPS is more accurate so they should be used exclusively. What distance calculation formula do they use or is it specified I believe the one the CU rules states should be used is the Great Circle Formula although I don't believe that is what Mark Brown uses because it is one of the most inaccurate it was the best in its day but that was a long time ago. In any event what is happening now is there are many programs race result programs and others that calculate distance from coordinates (Longitude and Latitude) If one club in a combine uses one formula and other clubs another they end up with inaccurate distances in relationship to the actual flight distance. The advantage goes to the loft that uses the formula that gives the longest distance compared to the one that gives the shortest distance. My point being there is a need for rules and a standard to be as accurate as you can be. On a long race this can be quite significant after a flyer does all he can to have his birds ready to win a race you need the people setting the rules to be up to date as possible and not automatically place you at an unfair disadvantage that in all likelihood could go on for years without you being aware of it.
| By Roland_Z on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 06:32 pm: Edit |
I fly in the same club as Tom and we have been using the GPS increasingly since 1996 in spite of the rulings of the CU. They may or may not know that there are pigeon flyers out west:>} In any case they are discussing since 1873 whether or not to send representation to one of our Western Canadian Shows. So far they have declined our invitations in a very Liberal-like fashion, by ignoring us.
We used Bowen's till about 1997 (unnaproved supplier ) some have Mark Brown who was used sporadically (although I can tell from GPS readings that he uses more modern methods than the simple Great circle Idea, thereby contravening CU rules anyway.
This makes all of the CU rules regarding distance calculations farcical anyway.
Having said all that, I found that Bowen's and M Brown's co-ordinates at the loft end very accurate, except when measured by accident or typo or whatever from the wrong street or country road etc. So at this point home loft location is Bowen's for older ones (some, quite a few checked for comparison purposes) and recently all are done by GPS.
ALL of our release points have been redone by GPS.
most were off by a mile or two, one was almost 5 miles (8km) off.
The Idea of making it acceptable if a manufacturer guaranteed +- 5m accuracy was a clever manipulation of the status quo at the time it occurred, everyone knew that the small hand held GPS couldn't quite deliver at the time, and that was how it was presented to the CU board by the approved suppliers of distance calcs of the day. The board was then able to relatively smugly report to the membership "See We told you so!! they aren't good enough!""
thankfully our present board has become far more Knowledgeable about them
| By Roly on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 07:24 pm: Edit |
But the case must surely be IF the Gps is not accurate to 5 m IS THE one in use NOW!... IT would appear not! The the one that is most reliable must be the criteria... surely A proposal to that effect and seconded at say the next AGM would bring certain matters to the fore.... and in the mean time evidence and a compaign could be well in motion.
Am I right in thinking that the committee, Cu. A U ARE only there to do what the majority decree.
| By Bshuba on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 08:43 pm: Edit |
Roland
After using the GPS and changing a few measurements HAS this made a difference in race results.Are the same fellows on top now pretty much those who Were on top before GPS.
| By Tommakowecki on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 09:17 pm: Edit |
It doesn't change who has the hottest birds...It is I/we (Edmonton) feel it is more accurate, easier, quicker and CHEAPER than any other method. It's kind of like not changing to Eclocks to protect the manufacturer of the oldmanual clocks..Not accepting GPS is only protecting the surveyers who now make afew dollars from the fanciers who want/need new distances. But I have no doubt that once used at the release and at the lofts....THERE IS NO MORE ACCURATE METHOD !
| By Nickoud on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 10:18 pm: Edit |
Just for fun. Pick a point in Quebec about 600 km away and get a set of coordinates. Now use your loft coordinates and use the RPRS or any other software that will give you an airline distance. Use each of the 3 formulas available. Keep in mind that the CU rule book states emphatically that the Great Circle formula must be used. I think you will see that there is a very large difference in the airline distance. Scary. And just a while ago we were rewriting rules to adjust the placement of the sensor pad at the loft by perhaps inches. All the rules need modernizing. Have done the above a year or two ago. Really opened my eyes.
| By Bshuba on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 10:26 pm: Edit |
Tom m
Not saying I didn't like the Gps,I would like it used here to make the measurements as close as one can.A friend and I have used one while hunting in the bush instead of a compass to find our way back to the truck and they work great.I should have one and use it every day just to find MY way around.haha..I just wondered as you said there were a couple measurements that were of greater differences and was interested to hear if it made a difference in results for those few.
| By David on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 03:31 am: Edit |
BEN JOHNSTON. wouldnt have had to use drugs if he was running the 90 yd dash. and the rest of the field was running the 100 yd dash.i think that sums it up.
| By David on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 03:54 am: Edit |
BILL BUTTERFIELD. my friend that has five plates of turkey and pies and one meal. forgot to thank you for buying our club open bonds. also if any other fellows in your club or area would like these bonds let mr. booth know. we only sell 600 and i think theres 500 sold all ready. the dead line for buying is aug the 12.yes my brothers birthday and hes is ORANGE.bill should mention shipping night we all so give all flyers a super free meal for making the drive north and the rushing they have. on a work day.i will set aside five plates for you sir. oh oh.
| By David on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 04:02 am: Edit |
DAVE BOOTH my wisky drinking friend.do you know if we all ready have a trohpy donated for our open cochrane race this year.if you can let me know in the next day or so and we can get this done well in advance. i think i got a company that will donate a 100 or a 150 trophy.your friend from the land of skin milk and diet pop.
| By Roly on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 04:58 am: Edit |
I can't see how likening GPS to E/C - Second dig - has any bearing whatsoever.
They are completely and utterly a different issue and scenario. Cost involved yes! But as to saying that E/C is for costs alone , well bluntly that is rediculous.
There are many aspect of the E/C as your recent and latter debates have opened up and proved. Proved there is a lot to be desired... unless you have it nigh outside the trap etc.
We here have many more reasons for their dislike and trust. Besides the impartiality to other, and mostly may I say, flyers who will not , but mostly cannot have for umpteen reasons. Then there are the mereits, whether right or wrong,. The way it is sett up... Unikon are working on it.. will be back end of this season I should think... With a new improved system that elimanates Fiddling, and much more! They have been quiet for last year or so.. content to sponsor races and such to keep the name and E/C banded about.
Indeed it would be a very short sight and mainly selfish act here at the moment to push for the system. And ALL fanciers here are able to compete and CLOCK their birds in! REGARDLESS as to the distances actually flown... well that may well be on the agenda again soon.... whether E/C is or not.
| By Brad on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 07:28 am: Edit |
Good Morning All
I believe that there are a couple of CU directors that read here. I wonder if it would be possible for them to take a question to the next directors meeting. This link is for a reasonably priced GPS unit.
http://www.garmin.com/products/gps76/spec.html
The key point is about halfway down the page. With the WAAS system the accuracy is 3-5 metres. Does this unit meet the criteria the CU set for using GPS for loft locations?
If you need this question in letter form, let me know and I will be happy to oblige.
| By Jim on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 08:00 am: Edit |
It is quite possible to have three different measurements from one loft to the same release point.
By the CU Rules you are suppose to use the Great Circle Formula, the official CU calculator does not and Bowen does not. Many of the race programs as mentioned provide options to select from three different means of calculating distance each one will give a different answer. The reason three are made available in race result programs; is because we have clubs, combines and our National Organizations all using different formulas. Now you would think that the meeting to set this right would take about 1 minute.
| By Jim on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 08:31 am: Edit |
A couple of problems
A WAAS-capable receiver can give you a position accuracy of better than three meters, 95 percent of the time. I think a rule change that for release points a GPS with the capabilities of under 10 meters accuracy is more then sufficient. The length of most of the pigeon transporters. For loft locations take two readings at different times with or without WAAS capability but using an averaging feature. It will be more accurate then what we use today. Since races are won by distance and time you need to have both right to have a fair result an honest result. Anything that can provide a more accurate time or distance is a step in the right direction.
| By Tommakowecki on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 08:43 am: Edit |
Good work Brad. I was not aware of this new WAAS technology....but it would appear thatr ANY GPS unit that has this WAAS ability WILL BE ACCEPTED by the present CU rules....For those who want to learn more about this WAAS feature look at: http://www.garmin.com/aboutGPS/waas.html It looks like Garmin has a wide variety of GPS readers that use this feature and a quick look at the prices show that they start in the $250 US range for a Garmin eTrex - Legend. Very good news at an affordable price.
| By Mikev on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 11:28 am: Edit |
Hi All. I think we are setting a dangerous precedent by suggesting that all GPS readings in any organization must be taken by the same unit. I think this idea is born out of pure ignorance and should be shot down before it catches on. If a unit is accurate to 10 meters, it is accurate to ten meters, period. All such units will give the same reading to within 10 meters. Using the same unit does not increase this accuracy. With the prospect of true national awards, open races, combines joining for releases, the Upper Canada National; any rule requiring all measurements must be taken by the same physical unit would create chaos. Why did the AU go that way and what on earth are we suggesting that it would be OK for? It is not OK, it makes zero sense and should not be considered.
| By Tommakowecki on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 11:43 am: Edit |
I agree Mike; but I think their rule is likely regarding a club, and that makes sence. It might not be that tough to use the same unit as far as combines go too. I undserstand that in your combine - each club has 2 delagates and it would seem that the same GPS coukld be given to each club for a week - fo them to do their measurements. Most GPS units can store all of the coordinates and then there would be no crying about different clubs having a different (beneficial reader) To check these coordinates...program the GPS to take you to that loft and YES it should take you within that 5M range of the loft. As for National Awards or Upper Canada National....it would be very extreme to insist on using the same unit...and common sence must be used here.
| By Brad on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 12:35 pm: Edit |
To Jim
If I understand the notations Garmin uses right the 95% was to account for "selective availibility". The US government used to deliberately make the system not accurate, I believe it was to stop an "enemy" from relying on the GPS for targetting. It was discontinued in 2000 or 2001, so shouldn't be an issue. But I think the two readings and average is a great idea and fair to everyone.
To Mike
I totally agree Mike. As long as the accuracy is there the unit should not matter. Saying we need to use the same unit for all readings would be like saying we have to have the same guy, using the same tape measure, wheel or car do all the measurements now.
| By Mikev on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 03:24 pm: Edit |
Hi Brad. Or Mark Brown has to use the same pencil to figure every member of the same club.
Tom. Glad you think passing the same Unit around to 13 different clubs and 150 plus members from Penetang to Pickering is not much of a problem. Considering it took me three years to even get them to send me an up to date membership list and considering that we remeasured every single loft in 1998 and sent new measurements to every single members and many are still using old measurements from 1966 instead of the new ones (with incorrect release locations) you sure put a lot more faith than me in our delegates and membership. Thank-you for the vote of confidence. The real point is that if using a different unit is not good enough at a club or combine level, it sure isn't good enough at the open money race or national award level. Besides, I still do not see your point. What makes using the same machine more accurate? Are they accurate to within 10 m or arn't they?
| By Terryh on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 03:52 pm: Edit |
When PeterL was questioning the positioning of electronic antennae in lofts, I pointed out that he was well within his rights, but should be aware, he may be opening another can of worms. Now, we have worms of all sizes and descriptions crawling all over the place.
I don't think this issue is arguable. Starting from release points to loft trap locations at home, I have no doubt that some major variances exist. For example, I was told by some eastern USA fliers that their release point at Arnprior,Ontario was the Jct of Hwy's 15 and 7. This can't be possible, as if the wires at that location don't get the birds the Transports on the Trans Canada Highway surely will. Any variance from this release point will vary to differing degrees at all lofts. I'm sure this exists at a lot of release points, that are used for measuring. We also all know how accurate our own loft measurements are.
Have to totally agree that if GPS units are within 10 meters accuracy, they are far superior to what we have presently.
If 4 inches are important in antennae placements, I'm quite sure variance of measurements have a far greater affect on results.
Best Terry
| By Billytaylor on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 04:48 pm: Edit |
TerryH has a very good point. One of our race stations, says Railroad station. Transport uses KMart parking lot about 2 miles farther. This release station goes back probably to the 1940s when birds were shipped by train. Fact. There aint noone in the ASSN that has questioned this release. GPS with coordinates is the way to go, but same ones who quibble about eclocks are the same ones who wont update release points. If you want to gripe it is easy. Lets race. Bye Billy
| By Jim on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 06:52 pm: Edit |
"I think we are setting a dangerous precedent by suggesting that all GPS readings in any organization must be taken by the same unit. I think this idea is born out of pure ignorance and should be shot down before it catches on."
Is that not an AU and CU rule now within a club? I maybe wrong but in any event at a club level I don't see it as problem. It would be best if you had a committee and they took the readings with the same unit. That way at least your assurd the GPS is set up properly. I know our combine had various clubs use various units and some readings given back to the race secretary weren't on this planet. Probably not the fault of the GPS but of the settings or the users knowledge.
Your going to have to maintain some control I beleive that would be the intent of such a rule.
| By Jim on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 07:03 pm: Edit |
"Or Mark Brown has to use the same pencil to figure every member of the same club."
It's actually best if he doesn't use the same pencil depending on the scale of map he is using to plot longitude and latitude the duller the pencil the bigger the dot, the bigger the dot the more he is off. This is actually true and funny well at least I thought so but you might of had to have been at the meeting.
| By Terryh on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 07:37 pm: Edit |
Correction on my previous posting. Anyone who knows the area, knows the release point at Arnprior is Jct. of Hwy's 15 & 17 and not 15&7 as I previously stated.
Jim, your above point is well taken and easy to understand. Any variance on map, when compared to 4" reality, is very significant.
Best Terry
| By Peterl on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 09:47 pm: Edit |
Yes it's me the quibbler back again.The 4 inches in the antenna placement has nothing to do with the point I was making.We were only concerned about the birds actually trapping before they could be timed .Evidently some people still fail to grasp this simple point.To compare antenna placement with loft measurements is insane.
| By David on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 05:12 am: Edit |
HI PETER.there being compared to each other. just on the element of both being fair to all flyers.and both means seconds or minutes lost and should be corrected.
| By Roly on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 06:28 am: Edit |
Dave with respect - for a change - the E/C pproblem can be fixed for a couple of dollars and a hammer in ten minutes.
The distances actually flown is a completely different ball game.
THEN what happens when some find that if / when / should it /be the case it is put into action, they find they ARE AT a disadvantage to what they was. Every one seems to think -NATURALLY I SUPPOSE -That they are possibly the one that is worst off... Many will / would find that for them it would have been best left alone.. And before any one chipps that 'So what. fair for all.... just a look at the crapp spouted about 4 INCHES caused over the Anttenna! And my misses would even worry about 4 inches.
| By Mikev on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 07:35 am: Edit |
Hi Jim. I did not say that Mark Brown couldn't sharpen his pencil. Only that he had to use the same one. Once it is reduced to a nub, the club has to fold and re-emerge as an Invitational Club, just to keep things fair. Of course they would neglect to invite last year's champion back into the new club.
| By Jim on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 09:16 am: Edit |
I have a small DOS program that will do the following anyone wishing a copy email me and I will send it to you. Jim@comanco-web.com
INVERSE:
Given the latitude and longitude of two points on the earth's surface, INVERSE will compute the distance between the two points and the azimuth of each from the other.
azimuth =
The trajectory of an angle measured in degrees going clockwise from a base point.