As asked sometime ago...a picture of a super inbred pigeon. (Quality is not great...it was taken indoors with a 35 mm camera - and then I took a digital photo of that picture). This pigeon 207 decends from 1 cock - my Oude Rode Vos. It was actually bred from a full brother and sister...who were out of Vos and a daughter - who for 7 generations had only one sire in her pedigree - VOS. Yes - more inbreeding/linebreeding than should ever be needed, but I had nothing better to do. Several of his children flew OK. Many of them bred much better. I have an inbred daughter of 207 - from 207 and a daughter, from a daughter.....who is a very good breeder. I will try to get a picture of her eye....next chance.

By Tommakowecki on Monday, December 10, 2001 - 10:23 pm: Edit

Guess you need this: http://www.tmakowecki.com/207eweb.jpg

By Bshuba on Monday, December 10, 2001 - 11:55 pm: Edit

Tom M
Pretty much the same eyes I get from inbreeding,I've only had 1 hen that had washed out eyes in all the inbreeding I've done.I know everyones inbreeding methods can be as different as all other methods regarding pigeons,But have you had problems with hens not EVER laying,Blind ybs,bowl legs,deformaties ect.

By Mreyesign on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 01:29 am: Edit

Tom it won't come up. all I get is message telling me that the WEB WILL NOT RESPOND, PRESS RELOAD??? DON'T GOT WONNA DEM DEM.?

By David on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 04:52 am: Edit

THANKS tom for the eye posting but i cant get it up. shit it sounds like a personal problem. oh

By David on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 07:22 am: Edit

TOM M. just got it. its amazing how some familys can take the inbreeding and some cant. i would lost money one that one saying its inbred. iris is still super. tom in the 11 generations how many times is the old pair in this one.years past i gave dave o a really inbred hen straight mother to dad breeding for five generations. i think it bred him 19 first place winners. the hen was very small and it had lost the iris but had super eye sign.i found the same in dogs at first they were 70 lb mutts after 20 years of heavy inbreeding all were 30 to 40 lb mutts.

By Tommakowecki on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 09:12 am: Edit

This is a larger picture so may take longer to load - be a bit patient. To Bill S. Yes Inbreeding can cause some outword problems - however with this Vos line - everything was good - except fertility began to be a problem....and from 4 eggs only 1 youngster would hatch and survive.....other than that no difformities. When I inbred 743 or his Mother Witpen - I did get blind youngsters but as stated a year or two ago...the Witpen hen had given all of her sons a blind gene and I think her daugfhters too ....but it might have been sex linked to only her sons.

By Bshuba on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 09:25 am: Edit

Dave R
I found that the size of the birds were 1/2 of what I started with,after your 5 generations,did you find they still handled pretty good.I found with mine it wasn't till about the 8-9 gen that things got interesting,but with most their eyes held out,got some real nice breeding eyes as I went along,although did have blind ones on occasion,funny thing was I didn't know anything about eyes other than not to breed White to White as I read in a JANSSEN book,Starting off with White and a Dom Violet some times I had couldn't help it,after awhile whites to whites were the ones I had the problems with the blind ones and the washed out hen.I think the janssen brothers did more inbreeding than they may have let on,MY opinion anyways.

By Tommakowecki on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 09:33 am: Edit

David; You are right...not all birds can take inbreeding very well. I tried sveral and these Vos's did it best. 207 is inbred Vos but not to the old hen. I started mating Vos to an Inbred gr. daughter - who was from a full brother and sister from Vos x Witpen. a daughter of that was paired back to Vos ( This hen was sold to Tom Spring and bred a 500 mile winner for him)...a daughter from that was paired back to Vos, then a daughter from that, then a daughter from that, and a daughter from that, then a daughter from that mating ( I am not sure I am counting right) but then a full brother and sister from that to get 207. In those 10 - 11 generations the only cock in the pedigree is VOS or one of 2 sons ...the first at the start of the process who was mated to his full sister and the other son at the end of the process...who was mated to his full sister....for 7 - 8 generations in the middle Vos was mated to his daighters, from the daughters. I should state there was one other trait that became more obvious and at younger ages - is arthritis or stiff legs. I can honestly say that birds with only 1/4 of this blood race much better than those with more of the blood....I am sure you can understand why.

By Tommakowecki on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 09:38 am: Edit

Oh size of these inbred Vos's - Did not change. The Origonal Vos cock was not a big bird....I would say that the birds remain medium...but crossed can get some big birds. My Red Zeek Cock is 1/4 Vos and is the largest pigeon I own ( and he is a good one - and doesn't breed real big children)

By Bshuba on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 10:07 am: Edit

Tom/Dave
I found inbreeding alot of fun and at times more so than racing,Funny thing now is after I stopped,I still find myself doing it,I just can't help it.I have 2 ybs in the nest right now that are going to be banded with last years bands off of the hen 610 I sent to the AC and her Sire JR.Father,Daughter pairing.JR is a 93 and I figure its time to have a inbred son off him,WILL I go a little further on inbreeding back to him????

By Mreyesign on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 03:47 pm: Edit

An excellent result considering how the picture was taken. As for the eye, I would never have believed it. My own birds could take a lot of inbreeding but, not that far in no way and produce a result like that. That bird can fly too.

By David on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 05:07 pm: Edit

THANKS TOM AND BILL. i really enjoyed those post and that eye. neat,

By Mikev on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 05:12 pm: Edit

Hi Tom. How did you select the next daughter to mate to Vos? Did you breed several full sisters and basket test them and wait for a multiple race winner to move on to the next generation?

By Billytaylor on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 05:19 pm: Edit

Mike V you answered your own question. There are many many more culls than champions. Stick to your theory and the also rans will over take you. Send you back to raising fighting chickens. You know better than your last post. Lets race. Bye Billy

By Mikev on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 05:27 pm: Edit

Billy. You lost me on that one??? What theory?

By Tommakowecki on Tuesday, December 11, 2001 - 06:29 pm: Edit

Mikev.... I did breed several from each nest and then....I did the unthinkable....picked the one I liked! None of these were flown for about 6 - 7 generations. My thought was that Vos was a prepotent sire....with every hen! So I thought that I could "recreate" him. And I was not living in an area I could race - so this is the way I enetertained myself. Did I accomplish what I set out to do? Well I got rid of all the birds after Vos died in 1985. My pick son and daughter from the last year where given to Karl Frank...He made a couple more (years) matings of full brother and sister. I started again in 1989 and 207 was really the only one left...I mated him back to his daughter for two generations and have the last of that breeding left...for the little that I have used them they have performed near the top. To be very honest I abandonned the inbreeding because I was back and racing and we all know it is difficult to accomplish both in the same matings... My intention is to pay more attention to my old blood lines (Vos and his best son 743) and if it affects my race results - so be it...for the time being. I would like to say that the best cock I ever sold...went to Oregon he was a son of 743 and his half sister off Vos too. This cock bred 22 1st place Combine winners from 100 to 600 miles. That's - as far as results - better than anything I had or have.

By Mikev on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 08:36 am: Edit

Hi Tom. I tried something similar back in the late 80's with the most prepotent hen I ever owned. The condition was that her son had to win a 1st combine before I would move to the next generation. It worked the first two years but the mistake I made was starting with a hen that was too old. The third generation looked good but because of the age of the hen, I stopped the experiment. It was interesting to hear about your results.

By Tommakowecki on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 08:48 pm: Edit

Clusters: Bill S - I was over at Frank Cesario's today and had a look at the Mealy 1061. Now I have to ask some questions: Did you see that cluster in his pupil or in the iris? Bob F. Do clusters come in the iris? I always thought they were in the pupil. Anyway this cluster - I saw today is at about 10:00 in the iris....not in the pupil! Is that where you saw it Bill, or has it moved?

By Bshuba on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 09:10 pm: Edit

Tom M
To Really be honest now I can't remember,Maybe Terry will recall,but its been awhile now and my memory stinks.
I'am pretty sure it was at least more than 1/2 in the pupil and the rest in the iris ,I'am sure it was at 9:oo or 8:00 at the time it was so big if it was all in the pupil I would have noticed the meally having no pupil.I can't imagine,this cluster?? because of its size not at least being in the pupil a little I do remember it being BIG.I'am glad you saw this anyways.

By Bshuba on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 09:20 pm: Edit

Tom M
I just looked at this eye on the AC site and you can see this Cluster ?? at about the spot I saw it.BUT when I saw it,,It was at least 4-5 times bigger than what it showed back then in the picture and was also in the pupil.I hope Terry can honestly remember.

By Mreyesign on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 11:25 pm: Edit

To Tom and Shubi. Generally, after a Cluster has formed and become fixed it doesn't move again but, this is by means a rule which is cast in bronze. As for it being over the iris, yes I have seen this, but if the cluster is small and only comprised of a few grains of pigment, it would be extremely difficult to see over the iris. I have seen several fixed ones which covered the entire pupil and another right here in the Valley which was a beaded eye in which the beads or grains had not become fixed and, which was comprised of so many grains, that you couldn't see the pupil because of them and they were all moving around together.. The bird was owned by Mickey Rhone and is still to this day, the only bird ever to win 4 races and a total of 9 diplomas in the F.V.C. her breeding record was even more impressive.

By Mreyesign on Wednesday, December 12, 2001 - 11:27 pm: Edit

To Shubi. Which bird are you talking about in the A/C/ That had a Cluster and where did it finish.

By David on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 05:31 am: Edit

HI BILL SHUBA bill would you class the black cock as having a cluster in the one eye in the iris.the eye with the square block of super 6 to 9.thanks bill

By David on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 05:35 am: Edit

HI TOM M. sure would be neat if you could post the eye of the bird that bred those 22 combine winners A.by chance did you happen to take a picture of franks mealy cock for us. thanks tom

By Pat on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 09:29 am: Edit

Frank's mealy, 1061 - Alberta Classic, Eye sign 2001, Game of Febuary, eye no. 1.

By Tommakowecki on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 09:41 am: Edit

No picture of the cock that bred 22 Combine winners; I agree that would have been great. But I never saw him after I shipped him to the US. A full brother bred several 1st place winners for a friend in Portugal too; but taking pictures of eyes is a hobby of very few.

I will try and get a picture of Franks 1061's eye; but don't hold your breath...took me a month and a half to get over and see it.....it was so cloudy a good picture would have been impossible yesterday. But I will try...

By Terryr on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 01:03 pm: Edit

Hi guys. The cluster in Frank's mealey to my recollection was at about the 9-10 oclock position and mostly or all in the iris.

By Tommakowecki on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 06:06 pm: Edit

I think this cluster on a orange/yellow iris would be tough to see. But in a dark/bull eye it shows up quite well. I will try and get a good picture of it - for all to see.

By Bshuba on Thursday, December 13, 2001 - 06:26 pm: Edit

Dave R
well the black cock is sitting on their first EGG right now,latter tonight or tomorrow night I'll take a looky see,When the hen is sitting.