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Yes Shuba made me cry and grab the kleenix. Mike V and Big O are truly gentlemen in the sport and to see them kiss and make up about made me puke. Both are now candidates for the Home. First one that can spell alzheimers wins. Contraversy is the spice of life for us old folks. Lets race. Bye Billy. By the way Mike Mac good response you dud.

By Daveo on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 08:41 pm: Edit

I love you to William Ha Ha.Should i call for the puk pail now?

By Marvin on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 09:37 pm: Edit

Mreyesign, thanks for the further information about Cal's birds. I need to eliminate some of my breeders before I can get any more. As you know if you base your family on 600+ miler birds you end up with a lot of good birds. I guess their "radar" is stronger(or longer??? haha) so they just keep coming home...even on those smashes when those based on 500 mile or less "sprint" birds don't come home. Anyhow, good idea.

By David on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 - 05:19 am: Edit

WELL sunday was the day. opened all yb doors.yb 5 months old. did not see any hawk attacks thats the good news, bad news is theres 25 missing.most years i breed a total of thirty this year let them breed like a texan 24 7 thats it 24 hr a day seven days a week. so had 90 plus to let out. still have to many dont know whos there dont care.the smart ones will sort it out and when there done i will step in and the trainning will begin. thats that.

By Billytaylor on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 - 01:33 pm: Edit

Good job, David. Seems you have learned something. Just check the eyesign of the returnees, may lead to wholesale slaughter of your prime eyesign breeders. Bet the remaining culls show good for you in the races. Be sure to give our bud, Booth first selection of the culls. He is winning now but can kick up his performance and othertake that dud, Ottaway. Lets race. Bye Billy

By Daveo on Wednesday, May 08, 2002 - 01:27 am: Edit

Thanks Billy T,

Thats the kind of motivation i need right now, but Booth is my bud,so you have to pick someone else to get my attenion.Your ok!

By David on Wednesday, May 08, 2002 - 04:43 am: Edit

YES sir taylor learned 30 years back.and smart dogs or good dogs do get killed by cars.i guess they werent that smart just road pizza a.now as to birds its always been a puzzle to me when flyers have fly aways.lucky have never had one. now are all fly away youngsters donkey dicks seems like it a.as to you and moonbeam send him flowers wear your hair piece and the marriage will be back on .news flash yank marries yank on pigeon site.off to work william have a good one you are a hard nut to crack.

By David on Wednesday, May 08, 2002 - 05:00 am: Edit

taylor as to sticking pins in big dave o ass just wont work. he just to easy going and laid back. known this brute since he was 14 years of age.should have nick named him COMA years back. he does wake up at flying time so let him sleep.ps. should mention hes a hell of a eye sign man. and his best friend is bill s. oh oh me in trouble again.

By Billytaylor on Wednesday, May 08, 2002 - 01:06 pm: Edit

Sending the net crew for Ottaway right away. Not for being a nut case, but for listening to Rodgers for 20 years. He is a potential terrorist when he learns that Rodgers shit is deep. Suicide bomb in the loft would be a just deserts. Wouldnt be too much a loss, since Rodgers is afraid to fly the OB distances. Just readjustment of a feather or two. Your turn Rodgers and you get first dig at me in Windsor. Lets race Bye Billy

By Roly on Wednesday, May 08, 2002 - 02:48 pm: Edit

Talking about 'Fly aways' I have spoken to several that have had them. the few that have been reported and where from. It appears that off all the ones that were reported and kept, raced on.... you would be very hard pressed indeed to find above one that was indeed any good lateron, or ever!
Food for thought that.. could well be they are telling you something lol
But I know even the so called top boys have had them.. and still none returned ever performed of note!

By Bas on Wednesday, May 08, 2002 - 09:39 pm: Edit

Hi Roly, Is there any particular age group prone to fly aways? The age/experience? Could a rogue pull the lot away? Heard over crowding cited, but equally thrown out. Can't see any reason for a link to future performance, but why would I know. These pigeons! Does it ever end????Lol. Bas

By Daveo on Wednesday, May 08, 2002 - 10:30 pm: Edit

Billy T, David R,

Dont know how to respond.I guess i will just accept your bantering as a sign of affection lol.

By Bshuba on Thursday, May 09, 2002 - 12:08 am: Edit

Dave R
Hows your ybs doing now,have you got back many you lost first time out.? Mine have regrown their last 2 flights and I have been letting them out but they haven't left the loft yet for a fly.I pulled both flights at the same time and they were still able to go out to walk around but now I don't think they relize they CAN fly..I'am not in No rush as of now for them to either,Mind you time will soon have to come to bring out the ball and get them up...They are laying eggs and pairing up..So I'll also have to seperate them.I hope I don't lose many when they fly for the first time and really shouldn't because they have been out a couple months,just not flying.Maybe a couple to the hiway,a couple to wires and hoping thats all......I will have some great hens for breeding next year if you know what I mean.Real knock outs..first they have to make it through the year racing...Anyways hope your ybs are coming back and are doing Well.

By Bshuba on Thursday, May 09, 2002 - 12:30 am: Edit

Roly
I've heard of fly aways but never had one yet,knock on wood...There was a fellow here {experinced flyer}a few years ago that always has his ybs kitting for 2-3 hrs and can have ALL land and trap with in seconds when ever he wants.Any ways one year he was watching them kite and they headed for the sunset in the evening and just kept going..I'am not 100% on this but I think he only had 1 yb come back the next or couple days later and the others were never seen or heard from.Scary because this fellow knows pigeons and handles ybs very well.Hope I don't have that fly away happen too me..or others.

By Roly on Thursday, May 09, 2002 - 04:13 am: Edit

Nor me!
Bbarries a great flyer.. had to restock from Louella, the 2/3 that returned weren't great the 5 returned in box crap. Terry. clubs best young flyer.... Lost on morning of basketing for the first race. Two back.. not much good, 3 report from Middlborough snd WAALES crap. Seems not age or precedent for it. But only heard of one any good... and that had, like a nest mate returned 3/4 hours on day. Seems natures telling us something.. to close breeding.. !? Too long line breeding with out introductions soon enough is possiblely highest on list.
Strangely it appears.. though obviously no records or proof, that yonks ago Most lofts that bred from selected x's in them days, weren'thaving this trouble.. started worse in 60's with the promotion of Line breeding, and in family! But I think one must ask locals of yesteryear for their comments on this. I have and will never ever line or in close breed.
The Way it should be done id wantonly ignored as I have posted. Me mine mate what they want.... 98% of the time... IF they aren't closely related. Or something takes my eye.
This will change after I have moved and take what I can lose with me. Then I will restock with the Colours I have always wanted to, And keep them seperate etc. Also with only mate best to best.. if not closely related.

By David on Thursday, May 09, 2002 - 05:45 am: Edit

HI ROLY a real good flyer also had it happen to him all jan bred up and gone never to be seen again i think there was 27 not one ever reported as lost wierd a. bill s hello my young birds now up to over 3o lost over 90 percent first round. opened doors sunday and have left them open all day when gone to work just closing up at night. cant explain it but thats whats happening it will be interesting to see if some of these will work back up to the lofts over the next days or months its out of my control. shit happens still have 20 more than i ever had wether thats good or not will keep you posted.

By Bshuba on Thursday, May 09, 2002 - 05:53 am: Edit

Hi Roly
In this fellows case it couldn't of been from inbreeding nor linebreeding,he's not one for doing that.

By Mreyesign on Thursday, May 09, 2002 - 11:19 am: Edit

In flocks of wild doves, fly-aways are a naturally occuring thing. When a flock reaches a certain size, the instinct of survival takes over and they split and there's a fly-away. It is usually because the food supply in that area cannot support the number of birds in the flock, so from necessity they split. With our birds, overcrowding is blamed but, I have had two in my life time and that most certainly was not the reason they went. I believe it's an inherited instinct, and when they are feeling good and full of beans so to speak, off they go. Sometimes young ones are lost from the sheer joy of flying but, a fly-away is something totally different and seldon if ever do birds get reported or return from one. And as Roly said, when they do they are not much good after.

I once watched a pure white young one which was out with the others picking around the yard and to this day, I was never able to know how I knew what was about to happen but, This young one took off and began to fly around as usual then suddenly, went up very high and being white I could see it clearly against the deep blue sky. It circled for a few minutes and then headed off never to be seen again. The other birds just watched it motionless and I was most reluctant to even move for a while incase I scared them into flying. I am still convinced to this day that they would all have gone too if anything had scared them into the air.

I believe that these occurances can be avoided by keeping firm control over your youngsters and never let them out to open loft if they are not really hungry and stay there with them, ready to get them in at the first possible problem such as a neighbours kids playing with a ball etc. Open loft is a great confidence builder but if not supervised can turn into a nightmare known as a fly-away.

By Billytaylor on Thursday, May 09, 2002 - 07:15 pm: Edit

Well on reflection BillyT has come to a couple of conclusions. But the reality is striking. Rodgers just named me the Toilet seat. But this jewel does not fly OBs to the distance. Is it a result of five cigatettes a day and a by-pass or is it a sign of beauty of eyesign speeding a decline among his flyers? Bobbie Fleming has said I was a minnow. Does this mean I cannot fly competitively without his advise. I think not since he has not flown competitively in the Valley for a number of years. But the jury is still out. Shuba the newest guru conceeds he cannot fly at 500 miles. Does this mean that eyesign is only good for the sprints? Book wants me to judge 4 youngsters before the races. Myron my friend of the capital letters wants me to say which I think is best, when all are small and have to had hand meds to insure their vitality. You are my friends but the reality of the situation boggles. Somebody on here is Bull shitting. Who? Lets race. Bye Billy

By David on Thursday, May 09, 2002 - 09:03 pm: Edit

BILLY DONT worry nobody here will be sitting on you. well maybe moon beam.aw have a good one sir taylor.

By David on Thursday, May 09, 2002 - 09:13 pm: Edit

HELLO BOB F. fly aways. from what i have seen and heard about its always the real early breds that pull this stupid stunt. and yes i believe its the right way to go letting them out hungry and under control. yet i have never done it. always let them out with food in there crops and food in the feeders. i just figure if they have half a brain food or not when getting close to darkness they want in. yes i know but its a thing with me let them decided for them and yes i bet the loses would be less.yet the ones left will fly if me got the time for them.

By Mikev on Thursday, May 09, 2002 - 09:45 pm: Edit

Hey Billy T. What about me?

By David on Friday, May 10, 2002 - 05:05 am: Edit

OSCAR. and you other gents that fly the dark system.as we know you lads dont breed early. do lads that fly the dark have fly away problems.me dont know the answer to this one. also oscar thanks for the phone call really really enjoyed our hour plus chat it was nice to learn alot of truth about our over seas flyers. good luck with your first race.

By Billytaylor on Friday, May 10, 2002 - 01:43 pm: Edit

Good luck in the races all you eskimos beginning OBs this weekend. Got the Combine and Assn results from last weeks smash in the rain 300. As I reported wrapped up short average speed in club, comb, and assn. Second comb overall av sp and 3rd assn with a 400 and a 500 to go. Got the Yahoos just where I want them. Oh ye of little faith. Cant catch up in ch loft since not enough points with fewer birds shipped on the longer ones and probably beat out in ch bird, since about 20 points behind and will only race the cull once more to the 500. Wayne has moved into the position of new long distance guru in Houston. But as we always say wait until he has to fly against BillyT in the assn next YB season. I have been taking lessons in humility from Fleming as you all can see. Lets race. Bye Billy

By Mreyesign on Friday, May 10, 2002 - 02:35 pm: Edit

One day pal one day. Your ass will be grass. And I'm the guy with the mower.

By Mreyesign on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 04:07 am: Edit

To Roly. I was of course happy to read about your visit to see the eggman bird and his brother. Even more happy that Billy boy was with you. Would love to have seen the look on his face when he saw the Clusters. I would have paid to see it if you know what I mean and you too. Now get a glass and go through the rest of them. I bet you have more than one???????? Then I might be able to tell you how to breed your First National Winner. Maybe even an International Winner. Wouldn't that be nice?????? My friend Dr J J Horn did it. So why not you??.

By Roly on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 06:55 am: Edit

And Baker bred sone internationals as well... for Belgium flyers... presume Jeff's bird was raced over sea!

By Mreyesign on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 07:13 am: Edit

Roly..He called me at 3.30am to tell me the night he found out he had won it, and could hardly talk he was so excited. From memory, I think but am not sure, it was from Pau. He won it with a Buschart.Cant spell it.There's a picture of it's eye on Heinie Sadewaters site but I lost it through the virus thing. He also has the eye of a bird which I think I might have had a hand in the breeding of for Maurice Jamall from Mexico. It looks very suspiciously like a Dominant Violet.

By Billytaylor on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 12:46 pm: Edit

Bob, good comments. But I know it will frost your dead pecker when I tell you John Munns doesnt believe in eyesign. Performance only. The only award he has not won is the Kings Cup and that is his goal before slacking off. Letsa race. Bye Billy

By Billytaylor on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 01:06 pm: Edit

Bob to tell you the truth and Roly will back me. Though I handled the birds to be friendly and nice never looked at the eyes. I was more interested in the Man than his birds, how he flyes, how he prepares, suppliments and feeding program. Numerous birds he showed us had pages after pages of wins. Munns could take a white turkey and still win. He is a thinking flyer. Everything he does is well thought out and he knows why he does it. Same for Frank Bristow. Lets race. Bye Billy

By Roly on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 02:38 pm: Edit

Another famous bird, 'Pickerings' National winner is that both it's parents had great Violet eyes. he was told via a couple of renouned Eye Specialist that it is useless and taboo to pair them - lol ... It may well be the case that most Eye Men have this thought. It turned out to be the best bird he ever had, .. !

By Mreyesign on Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 03:11 pm: Edit

To Billy. If I only had a dollar for every one who didn't believe in this subject yet, when examined, their birds are found to be loaded with it. But that really isn't the point. The "Eggman" bird is famous for it's many win's as is it's brother which also has Clusters in the form of drifting grains of pigment and, this confirms just one more time the validity of what I announced to the pigeon flying world way back in 1967 when I revealed for the first time ever, my discovery of the SPOT EYED CLUSTER together with it's nest mate the beaded eye.

I don't mean to brag about this but. If I had continued keep my journal going, and made notes every time I found them in top pigeons, it would prove catagorically to the none believers the true value of these discoveries.

All jokes aside Billy, you are missing out on one of the most helpfull aspects and subjects contained within our sport. I wish I lived closer to you. Perhaps when we talk in September and you see some birds graded etc. This just might be the straw that will break the camels back and, after you witness this you will start looking because I just know that you have Cluster eyed birds amongst your's.

To Tom Mak. Tom I was looking through some photos on our site the other night and as I learn more about how to opperate this machine I am obviously now able to examine eye's even better than I could before.

I blew up the picture of one of your birds No 2322 I think was the number and, to my complete surprise, I found that it does not have a cluster. It is a piece of capilliary or blood vain which some how has become dislodged and has drifted down into the pupil. I have never seen this before so cannot tell you how such a thing can happen or, what if anything it denotes.

The thing which I thought was a cluster appears like a little grey worm in the pupil in the upper area of the eye and looks to be pointing downward towards the pupil.

Tom,I can't find where you posted your records of the bird but as I recall, it was not that impressive but I could be wrong. If I am correct however, this would explain the not so outstanding record wouldn't it????

The magnification I used was at 200 and 300 X. Just incase you wish to look for yourself.

By Myron on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 08:21 am: Edit

ACCORDING TO OTTO MEYER YOU WERE NOT THE FIRST PERSON TO DISCOVER THE CLUSTER EYE.

YOU JUST TOOK GREDIT FOR IT.

By Roly on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 08:44 am: Edit

eerrrrRRR there could be Trouble ahead, no moonlight or roses.. In the 'Ring Nylon' and behave. or are you routing and spouting.. but not clouting?

By Mreyesign on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 09:30 am: Edit

That's Bullshit Moron and you know it you shit stirring piece of crap. Don't even go there You clown, or I'll blind you with science again like I have in the past, many times. You never met Otto Myer and until I told you about him you didn't even know who he was. You are not worthy to even mention his name. Now contribute something to this site or shut the f... up. We don't need side line scruitany from the likes of imposters like you you fake. Get a coop, get some birds, at least enter one race, win something, ANYTHING. Then and only then will you be qualified to open your stupid mouth. Until you have done this you should remain silent because to date, you have no practicle experience, which is what giving advice and opinions is all about.

By Billytaylor on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 12:12 pm: Edit

Bob, shut your mouth. Myron is a gentleman and a fine pigeon man. I dont know why he wont give practical advise on medications, feeding and setting up birds for racing. Myron we are not your enemy. Its just that us numb nuts flyers are not fanatical on only the subject of eyesign. I for one would be honored to listen to your advise on practical and thoughtful ways to improve my flying. Take a zantac and think about it. We miss your posts, but be positive. I am the shit stirrer and AH on here. Well maybe Fleming too. Lets race.

By Billytaylor on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 12:35 pm: Edit

Fleming, I think you are right. Remember when I did check the eyes before releasing on a training toss I reported Seeing the circle, bubbles etc in some of the OB racers eyes. I concluded that you eyesign gurus were doing things bass actwards and that races would do the eyesign selections for you. Reason is because if you miss the wing, body and most of all the inner spirit of the pigeon you have only selected a super eyesign cull. Not trying to insult nor belittle. Just an old competitors observations. Be nice seeing you in action in Windsor. Lets race. Bye Billy

By Mreyesign on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 01:55 pm: Edit

To Billy. I'm sure your intentions are sincere however, what will happen when someone asks him? How do you know? What is this clown going to say. You guys are 50 years behind the times,kiss my ass etc, like he did last time. Then when questioned about his attitude, he never even had the balls to apologize? Is he just going to continue to ignore questions asked of him like he does? simply because he doesn't know the answers. Or will he finally come clean like a real man and tell the truth. i e. O,I read it in a book or, so and so told me.?????He misinterprets most of what is said to him or what he reads and who needs to hear that? WHO NEEDS HIS BULLSHIT. Sorry Billy but I don't. But, I will listen to any voice of EXPERIENCE, even if I don't agree with it.

To the above post. Yes, I had forgotten about that instance when you became real for a short while. Short lived reality. Now there's something to draw to. ha ha ha. I've ordered a couple of eye glasses for you anyhow.

By Mreyesign on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 02:39 pm: Edit

To Roly. I can but at this time will not respond to your brief comment about mating two Dominant Violets together. This is one of the focul points of my seminar and, if I say anything now I will burst the bubble for those hundreds of thousands in attendance. You better come over Pal.????

By Marvin on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 04:23 pm: Edit

BillyT, my use for eyesign is to eliminate those that don't have a chance of being Champions. I do agree that they should be flown to check for guts and other weaknesses that I can't see. In theory a person will be able to keep less birds. My observation is that most people that know eyesign in this area don't tend to keep less birds than before but now keep a higher percentage of better birds.

By Billytaylor on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 05:45 pm: Edit

Marvin, In my opinion you are in far a fall. So are we all. There is a champion in the wings gaging your dominance. This novice has studied the theories and is smart enough to fly by new methods that will strip the guts out of you and me. Stand by the eye and you will not learn newer techniques. Mark it. Lets race. Bye Billy

By Sarmy on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 07:11 pm: Edit

Greetings,All! I have to agree with Billy, The new guy theese days has a lot more information available to him due in a large part to the internet. It enables the new guy to search for birds from all over the globe in a matter of a few moments ,to check on medications,look for advice and compare theories and strategies from great flyers world wide. And as far as my take on Eyesign is that it nust have some merit because so many good flyers take quite a bit of stock in it but to me I am not sold on it, I believe the best way to test birds is in the basket.I think the basket is the only way to seperate with any degree of accuracy the wheat from the chat.It has been proven through the Cornell University studies that the pigeons eye sight plays only a small part in its homing ability.I believe that pigeons are no different than any other athletes there are millions but only a fraction ever make it to the proffesional level! Why?....I believe that a lot has to do with the training and coaching one gets, and genetics....not much different than pigeons! But will a Champion Female athlete and a Champion Male athlete always produce another champion athlete ...no! Anyways I thoroughly believe that every bird you raise should have a chance to prove his worth and I believe the only true way is to fly them!You never know for sure where that Shamrock is going to come from but culling youngsters before they have raced seems to me to be self defeating . I raise approx 80 youngsters a year they are all trained and the ones that are left are raced, I split the team in half and fly half one week and the other half the next with the exception of my first 5 birds home from the week before. I have 40 spots on my old bird team if a youngster proves his worth then he gets one of those 40 spots if not he becomes gator food for the gator in my pond....the proof is in the puddin..... LATE! Sarmy

By Bear on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 07:25 pm: Edit

It does not matter what you look for in a bird, eyesign, wing, feet sign whatever there are two things you cannot see to judge. The HEART and the BRAIN. I have seen many sportspeople who have looked as if the had it all and they did as far as the pysical attributes and skill level but they were lacking in either the intelligence to use their ability or the heart to fight on when the going got tough or they lacked both.

By Baetensd on Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 03:34 am: Edit

I agree with Bear and i think that is one of the great things of pigeon racing : you can't see or know it all...
greetz,
D

By Mikev on Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 11:05 am: Edit

I agree in principle with your policy Sarmy, but what do you do if at the end of the season you still have 35 old birds and 70 youngsters and all have clocked or arrived with the clocked birds? Basketed testing has to be given an extremely high priority, but to try and cull by the basket and simply ignore all other information is putting far too simple of a spin on it. I agree with Billy T that it ain't rocket science, but it isn't as simple as your formula implies either.

A simple spin often weaved by those ignorant of eyesign and afraid or too lazy to study it goes something like this "if eyesign is so good, why don't the eyesign guys keep just one bird and win every race?". Let me turn the tables, "If all we have to do is select by the basket, why don't those guys produce a super family of pigeons and win every race?" The answer to both questions is of course that breeding is an art as much as a science and a game of percentages with no absolute rules. Discount any side of the game at your peril.

By Jimmyoz on Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 04:33 pm: Edit

Bear,
How true, We can't know it all. Also, If several members of your club are making an outstanding effort you may never win. You can have an outstanding season and never win a race.
Jimmyoz

By Billytaylor on Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 08:01 pm: Edit

True Mike V, Bear and OZ. The eliminators in this game are those regardless of pedigree or eye that do not race well. If you hold a slacker hoping he will do better as a yearling you have bit the big bugger and even if you are right now and again most of the time you are wrong. There are many beautiful pretenders, but the real cusp will show early. Lets race. Bye Billy

By Mikev on Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 10:15 pm: Edit

Another point on selecting by performance; consistancy is a must. As soon as the need arrives to make an excuse for a bird, it is likely a cull.

By Bear on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 05:26 am: Edit

I am perfect . I thought I made a mistake once but I was wrong????????

By Roly on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 11:15 am: Edit

And that Bear is the only mar on perfection lol

By Billytaylor on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 12:22 pm: Edit

Well where are my Canadian friends on the Discussion? Only Mike V dares to post. Well pussies come in all colors, but look the same. Lets race. Bye Billy

By Jimmyoz on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 04:16 pm: Edit

Eyesign, Balance, small feet, clear throat, wing, performance, whatever!

If it works for you - use it. But remember, someone else will have something else to use to beat you on race day. We are not God although some of us possibly thnk that we have the miraculous powers of his son. We are backyard farmers playing Social Darwinism.

Jimmyoz

By Roly on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 07:34 pm: Edit

You know it amazes me. WHAT is consistency?
How can one achieve and Obtain it? It is I am afraid a fruitless word.
ONLY birds in good form and great condition - regardless how good - can compete to their ability. Now the ole scenario of whento send or not to send raises it's head.
I agree it is far easier for W/Hers to send regularly etc. But that in it's self means that of they ent beating lofts mates they aren't beating Jack S*** and eyesign or clawed toes with the big throat won't make a scrape of difference. Job don't and dusted.
Nnatural of course due to many other scenarios takes a little more creedence... but..!

By Bill on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 09:02 pm: Edit

Hello Billy T...Sure not afraid to post, posted the other day, anyway how was your vacation with the great english ambassidor Roly,Also got my ass kicked big time this week think i was 7th 10th don't no about the rest

By Bill on Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 09:07 pm: Edit

Hi Roly I must agree 100% this year i left the birds on natural and i have had a fantastic season so far in 8 races my first bird home in each race i have 4x1st 2x2nd 1x3rd 1x7th so i don't no if i will change back to widowhood next year or not just my opinion. bill butterfield.

By Davebooth on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 07:19 am: Edit

Hi all ,Not being an eye sign expert,although I like a nice eye I cull by performance of the bird and if it doesnt perform it and its parents go.This year out of the 11 old birds I am flying I will end up with probably only 4 in the loft at the end of the old bird races.My new team will come from this years young birds.It takes just as much to feed and clean for a bad one as it does for a good one,therefore less bad ones you save on feed and cleaning and also disapointment in your results.

By Roly on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 09:32 am: Edit

You know it amazes me. WHAT is consistency?
How can one achieve and Obtain it? It is I am afraid a fruitless word.
ONLY birds in good form and great condition - regardless how good - can compete to their ability. Now the ole scenario of when to send -or not to send - raises it's head.
I agree it is far easier for W/Hers to send regularly etc. But that in it's self means that if they ent even beating lofts mates they aren't beating Jack S*** and eyesign or clawed toes with the big throat won't make a scrape of difference. Job don't and dusted.
Natural of course due to many other scenarios takes a little more creedence... but..! Again if the manager doesn't prepare and send them in good condition, race fit etc, and to an extent in the right nest circle and frame of mind for motivation, then IT is the manager who needs culling. I believe the a system, any system can bear fruit and dividends only after a settle regime of say two years. One must allow for our errors etc. And where as too many glaringly shout I'm a 'Cull' equally too many haven't had the chance to prove their worth. Tradition and tjhe Fanciers preferences, likes and dislike waver too much in their selection. Hence Strains / blood are often prefered or kept in preference to a bird that has had a fair crack. This of course takes time and patience. But just as a bottle won't produce a winner, niether will Eyes, toes, broad back and small throats.

By Billytaylor on Monday, June 24, 2002 - 02:33 pm: Edit

Roly see you are in rare form. Keep it up Champ. For those that can interpret your frank truth they will gain much. For those that cannot understand the essence they will not.
Hello Billy Butt, a drooler you may be but balls you have. Good racing and keep it up, Pal. Hope to meet you in Oct. Lets race. Bye Billy

By Mealy on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 08:25 am: Edit

Hi Billy.

Understand you had a good time with Roly last week. Thanks for the cap, but unfortunatly left it at roly's but hope to be reunited soon.

I must say even though roly may not thank me for it he is a man true to his word, he even surpassed his initial generosity. here I was a newcomer to the site took stick of you and yet Roly promised me some of the best birds I could not purchase anywhere FOR FREE!!! I ended up with a young bird team

Roly this goes out with the sincerest thanks and i just hope i can do these birds justice, future champs in the making, I will certainly give them my best just hope they give me their best.

Roly heres to you a gent and a half.

By Bill on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 12:45 pm: Edit

Hello Billy T. yes you will meet me in oct pleasure will be all mine heard a lot about you from my friend D Booth. Billy drool i don't met many of the best flyer's in england in the late 50's and 60's top quality they where and still are as far as i can see roly included. bill butterfield.

By Tommakowecki on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 11:12 am: Edit

I was just looking at the Janssen Bros book and in particular the eye of De Merckz. It looks - to me - like it has a couple small clusters in its pupil!!!!!!!! Check it out.

By Mreyesign on Friday, August 30, 2002 - 01:19 pm: Edit

Tom it's pretty well known now that any and all established families will produce Clusters from time to time. The important thing's to know about them are. How many different kinds of Clusters are there? What are these differences? Which one's will breed winners and which won't and why?? How to mate them up properly and, why some don't breed worth a damn with one bird, yet set new records with another?? Are there good and bad Clusters?? Does size play a roll? Is location in the eye important? Does the colour of them matter? In which bird is it better to have a Cluster, the cock or the hen.?? What are some of the myths to be avoided about them?

These are just some of the many questions that will be answered and proven at the convention, and there will be many others about these phenomenal pigeons that have been resposible for the greatest impact ever on the entire sport.

By Mreyesign on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 02:54 pm: Edit

I just had an interesting conversation with one of the top flyers in the country and he asked me a question which I felt would be of interest to many of the readers.

This is what he asked.

If you were given the choice between a Cluster, a Single Tubed eye, a Combine eye and an eye with drifting pigment in it's pupil (beaded eye) which would you choose.????

So, rather than just answer out right, let me take this opportunity to invite some responces from the readers. If you have been following the eye-sign discussions, the answer should be obvious but, let's see what the readers have to say about this excellent question.

By Billytaylor on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 07:07 pm: Edit

You know Bob, my answer would be who cares? Look at the race sheets. But it does make interesting conversation. Wish Shuba and Myron would respond. Really miss those perverts posts. Lets race. Bye BillyT

By Myron on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 09:30 pm: Edit

HI BILLY,

SHOOBIE WENT OFF THE DEEP END & FORGOT HE COULDN'T SWIM. I'M STILL HERE TAKING IT ALL IN. THE GOOD & THE BAD, BUT STILL AFLOAT.

THE LE-TOUR CLASSIC IS GOING OFF AT 7:30 AM FROM SYDNEY,N.S. SO I'LL BE ANXIOUS TO SEE HOW MY THREE PILOTS DO AS FAR AS THEIR NAVIGATIONAL SKILLS ARE CONCERNED. WITH THEIR BIONIC BODY, BRAIN & EYES, THEY SHOULD DO QUITE WELL, I HOPE. OH, DON'T FORGET THEIR WINGS. THEY'LL NEED THOSE TOO, I'M SURE. WITH THE TEMPS IN THE HIGH 30'S TO LOW 40'S TO START THEIR TRIP I'M SURE THEIR MOTORS WILL NOT OVER HEAT, TIL CLOSE TO HOME. ONCE HOME A GOOD CUP OF TEA WILL STRAIGHTEN THEM OUT WHILE THEY WAIT FOR WINTER TO PASS.

By Mreyesign on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - 11:37 pm: Edit

So how did your first race go Billy?

By Mreyesign on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 12:41 pm: Edit

Well I thought I would have gotten a couple of answers but it looks like I was wrong. O well, as you say Billy, Who cares. No sweat.

By Tommakowecki on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 12:59 pm: Edit

Bob - All of us are students of yours - Teach us, answer your own questions....we will appreciate it!

By Billytaylor on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 01:44 pm: Edit

Not racing yet Bob, first club 100 on 14 Sept and I will post results not hide behind we all race for the sport of love of birds. Sounds like losers rationale to me. Lets race. Bye BillyT. If the stove is too hot suck an ice cube.

By Tommakowecki on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 01:55 pm: Edit

I don't know how long you have raced pigeons BillyT - if you like them...or if you have them so you can lay a lickin' on your competitors. It matters not to me. If you and anyone else does well, I know it's because the effort was made to be successfull. Congratulations. I also know we are only as good as our competition lets us be. Enjoy your victories, enjoy your birds...just enjoy!

By Billytaylor on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 02:16 pm: Edit

Is that an honest peace offering? Or do we continue the attacks. I am ready and able for both. Lets race. Bye BillyT

By Marvin on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 02:37 pm: Edit

Mreyesign, I have been thinking about the four types of eyes you asked about but I could not answer. I know what I like in pigeon's eyes but need to learn the terms you are using to know if I ever saw any of them or not. That is why I would really like to get to the seminar. For example we still have pigeons that are "Lavender" colored out here in our area. Actually they told us the one that won 5th at 1249 was Ash Red. We still call them Lavenders. We know what we are talking about in our club...but they are Ash Reds in reality (red version of Slates).

By Myron on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 03:05 pm: Edit

MARVIN,

DIDN'T THE TRENTONS HAVE A LOT OF THIS SHADE.???I HAVE A PHOTO IN P.R .OF ONE SENT TO ME FROM FRIEND.

By Tommakowecki on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 03:07 pm: Edit

I have said it before BillyT. Pigeon people are family to me......never been at war with any of them - although, I have had my disagreements with you and others. I treat others in the tone in which they treat me. Just feel that hugging a tree, gets better results in life, than setting them on fire. PS. Not sure why - but I have been getting a virus a day from "Stuart Baker/Roly??"

By Marvin on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 03:30 pm: Edit

Myron, I believe you are correct. The Trenton boys were the ones who told us that #1429 was Ash Red instead of Lavender when we shipped him by air to OKC and then they put the metal countermarks on and shipped them on with the rest of the birds to Raleight, NC. We did try a few Trentons in this area but I don't know of any Trentons left around in our club. None of the ones we tried were Ash Red. We still get a few every year in our old family. I bred 3 or 4 this year.

By Sarmy on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 04:53 pm: Edit

Greetings All, Well two weeks til race season the birds are ready,I will start the season with 38 youngsters thanks to a tough toss I had 3 weeks ago in wich 35 of 75 youngsters were somwhow lost on a perfect day for flying low humidity and no winds and from a distance they should have had no problem with, The only thing I can think is they may have mixed in with some other birds and somehow got diss oriented the corrider in wich I train is loaded with pigeon flyers and everyone is training now. Who knows....Anyways good luck to those of you guys flying already and Good luck to you Billy ! We start on the same day so we will be posting are results around the same time, First race is also a hundred mile race for me,I know the team is a small team this year but I have to believe they are the best of the best from this years crop and they are ready to compete and I`m sure they will do themselves proud! LATE! Sarmy P.S. Will post results _every week with no whining!!!

By Mreyesign on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 05:29 pm: Edit

Good luck Sarmy go get em.

By Billytaylor on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 07:24 pm: Edit

Sarmy you may have your best season yet with the small numbers since you can examine each pigeon, checking the wing moult and assessing the condition instead of mobbing. I am betting on it. Never concern yourself with lost pigeons no matter the cause. Very few would have figured high in your results. Prove me wrong. Good luck bud. Lets race. Bye BillyT

By Billytaylor on Sunday, September 01, 2002 - 07:27 pm: Edit

Decline the peace offering dip. Dont need a religeous lecture. Pay your tithe. Lets race. Bye BillyT

By Roly on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 01:56 pm: Edit

Yes Tom have posted why Virus etc. on appropiate heading.. not intentional I can assure you... that's why I have replied to Emailers of course in bulk on site... but don't think your specially Tom. Every one who has EVER emailed me, let alone those I have emailed are geteing - were getting - stacks of them ... junk mailers are peed of big time lol.lol. But it is no joke, and something I could do with out. UPDATE your anti viruses defences 2/3 times a day at the moment.. at least once before you do any thing.. this is the ding dong of all bells. a real barsterd.. and you if hit have no respite. Norton though are getting to grips with it.... umpteen new down loads, and 2 new ones in a hour and a half. a moment of not up dating and it's in.. be warned.

By Mreyesign on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 02:27 pm: Edit

Roly go back and see what I posted under worm virus in General topics. It sound good and he is an tech expert.

By Roly on Monday, September 02, 2002 - 06:24 pm: Edit

Have noted Bob.
I have handled dirct sons, daughters of the De Merckz.
..... Any way the most startling thing to hit you is the shape.. and size.

By Mikev (142.46.55.93 - 142.46.55.93) on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 07:12 pm: Edit

Hi Bob F. I just got home from judging a local eyesign show. The second bird I looked at had a cluster. I found out later that it was a ringer snuck in by Rodgers to test me, but I didn't get caught Ha. Ha on him.

Anyway, my question. At an eyesign show, what should the judge do when a cluster eye shows up if the eye is pretty average in all other qualities.

By Mreyesign (198.81.17.186 - 198.81.17.186) on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 08:26 pm: Edit

Mike it depends on the kind of show. If it's a get together to have a Bar-B-Q and some fun type show, ignore the Cluster and judge on the catagorie it was entered in but, If it's a serious show and some are, such things are decided BEFORE the judging begins and separate sections are opened for such top examples of individual eye features. It's usually upto the judge.

So How did you get on with the job? and were they happy with your effort. Top gun Mike had a ball doing his.

Give us the run down on it. Howmany Birds etc and if you picked any real greats out of the bunch etc.

My computer guy never showed up so Robert and I finished the counting check from the journal. Interesting to say the least.

Total No of birds graded in 17 years and 2 months. 473,122. multiply by 2 = 946,244 eye's. That's 27,830 per year on average, or 532 birds per 7 day week or, 76 birds daily. Most ever graded in one day was 3050. Most in a week was also in Texas when compiling info for the data base of George Girdler at the same AU Convention, 7250 birds. All documented and many thousands photographed.

Not quite as high as I thought, but this is not a dead on balls accurate number either, plus it's only over 17 years not 20. I often forget to add the extra birds that the none believers go to fetch after they witness how it works and talk to those on the spot who have had birds graded. Often these out number the birds that were booked in for grading, so there it is for those who were interested.

In closing I might add that regardless of it's critics and their crap, this subject is here to stay, and my challenge to them and the world at large to prove me and my technique wrong scientifically is still standing un-answered, and the man who enraged me enough to issue the challenge, Larry Lucas is still missing in action skulking under the pulpit or behind the protective shield of the Circus site where they don't permit people to question the qualifications of those who post.

By David (64.228.0.140 - 64.228.0.140) on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 08:33 pm: Edit

hi mike v. you forgot to mention how the bird did. i gave it to bruce afew months back. he did call last night and i did suggest he put it in.i havent talked to anyone did the club have a good turn out,

By Mikev (142.46.55.78 - 142.46.55.78) on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 09:32 pm: Edit

Hi David. Considering the weather, it was not too bad a turn out, but the organizers were hoping for a bit better. Seems they come out more if the weather is lousy.

Thanks Bob. It is more of a fun day out for the boys, and I took exactly the approach you suggested.

There were three classes, racing, breeding and duel purpose. There were only about 20 birds in each class but about 4 or 5 exceptional eyes in each class. I asked about the birds performance after I had announced the winners. I did the racing class first. It turned out that the bird I picked had 4 first combines and 20 diplomas. The best breeding eye was I believe a dominant violet and it was the grandfather of the bird that I picked as the best racer. It only raised one youngster this year. That youngster was the owners first bird clocked 7 weeks in a row. The best duel purpose was an old style black, a #7 Bishop with a real good seration. Guess what, it was the mother of the bird that I picked as best racer. John Lehman won all three classes. I think the crowd was satisfied.

By Mreyesign (198.81.26.17 - 198.81.26.17) on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 10:10 pm: Edit

Well all I can say to that is CONGRATULATIONS PAL. That's the way it should be when the judge knows his stuff, and don't it just feel great when you nail those suckers like that. That's the kind of judging that makes the skeptics run for cover.

So in all, I guess you would have to say that an eye-sign show does work to evoke some activity for the members other than racing. That's great, just great. Was it open to the public? and if so how was the responce? Wish I could have been there.

I'm happy for you Mike and your club mates, and proud to call you a friend and an EYE-SIGN man. You just proved that fact by the results of what you did. Woohoooooooo.. Well done and good luck to you, you're off and running. And the beat will go on thanks to you.

By Spuggy (209.239.5.167 - 209.239.5.167) on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 02:07 am: Edit

John Lehman? Andys son?

By David (216.209.109.102 - 216.209.109.102) on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 07:00 am: Edit

thanks mike v.congrats congrats.talked to rob marshall after i posted .the club was please with making a real good profit. we both agreed once our club has got the poo tester our next goal is a camera. to take pictures of the winners you picked for the lads and for posting them on here for fellows like bob etc.our goal is to have all this for the sunday morn milk and cookies events bringing flyers together from all clubs just for a day of fun.

By Mikev (142.46.55.84 - 142.46.55.84) on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 09:19 am: Edit

Hi Hal. Yes, John is Andy's son.

Bob. This particular show was not advertised to the public, but David Rodgers has a big event under way for the spring that is targeted at the public. By the time he gets the microscope with the TV monitor, the digital camera and video tapes all working, CNN may even cover the event.

By Mreyesign (198.81.19.47 - 198.81.19.47) on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 11:37 am: Edit

So Dave tell me more, when and where will this be. Can I help in any way???

By Roly (62.253.32.6 - 62.253.32.6) on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 12:46 pm: Edit

No ... So mind your own buisness and butt out ... no money to pay you Feather Merchant lol

By Mreyesign (198.81.18.46 - 198.81.18.46) on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 03:31 pm: Edit

Just trying to help Roly I'm not selling anything.

By Roly (62.253.32.6 - 62.253.32.6) on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 03:57 pm: Edit

I was just jesting mucker ....

By Mreyesign (198.81.26.17 - 198.81.26.17) on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 05:15 pm: Edit

That's Mr mucker by the way. So are you all ready for new years? I hear tell that they've sold more rings this year than ever before in America, so somethings afoot.

By Roly (62.253.32.6 - 62.253.32.6) on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 05:21 pm: Edit

Any way in response to Top Guns post on other site I would like to imply a simple reason why I believe that there are many scenario's why certain things work for one and not others etc. And why often two complete opposites can and could be both right. Hence where disagreement in this great sport arise.
Simplely in lay man terms.
All birds react to systems. Now the secret is a system that is compatable and able to work to good effect in all areas.
Hence certain things in certain aspect and ststems work. whilst in another it could well be Taboo or at best not a very good idea. But on another day / circle or system could work wonders!
The system must make up an 'Whole' to be tops and efective.
Any change - however simple - must be change gradual and effects quickly noticed too.