When do they lose the traits?
The Discussion Centre: Pigeon Health: When do they lose the traits?
I wonder if all the hype of these pure strains, they shapes and sizes and merits go does the strain - name go too?
When the name of SO amd So's birds renouned for their certain qualiyies are no longer visable or meriteous doe that mean A. they no longer pocess them and are they no longer - regardless of the papers - the real macoy?
Roly not to worry, when we sell out of Van Der Pluckers, got some McCoy/ Pathfinders as subs. Took me 2 years but I got all but one left in Texas.Lets race. Bye Billy
Roly,
Valid point. If i buy 2 pair of Taylor Van der Pluckers and mate them differently to how the Texan would, then I am changing the nature of the bird. Slowly I will bring traits to the fore that are beneficial to me nut may not be desirable in the lone star State. Look at the various Janssens. The Den Haan seem to be a longer leaner bird. than say the Andre Berte's. Correct me if I am wrong.
Jimmyoz
Oz you are too smart for us peg legs. I will defer. Not to mention a cleft pallet or hair lip. Lets race. Bye Billy
Oh you are so right Ozzy. I have handle directs out the loft... supposedly .....( still have to check when told the 'Grass is Green' sometimes LOL) And they amazed me by thier wedge shape and how wide and deep up front they are!
Interesting question, variation in a strain is not only introduced by the breeder, but also by nature, "chromosome crossover". If pigeons have an average chromosome crossover rate of "10%" in each generation...then left alone, in 7 generations a strain is no longer the orginial strain. This is like compounded interest. Depending on factors such as "chromosome crossover", without a fancier's consistent selection a strain or family of birds could look quite different left up to it's own devices. Each generation, "10%" of the birds may have changed from the original traits of the strain just by accounting for crossing over of a bird chromosomes alone.
Lucky we have the basket to help make a lot of these decsions...for us. I know I have birds from the great Janssen line, but I don't know what a Janssen is supposed to look like. It is likely that if my stupidity doesn't kill or loose all my birds, I will have departed from the Janssen look and feel in no time at all..
later,
Dave.
Dave T
too Deep for me to understand,But if you have or ever do come across a true Janssen,The Look,feel,shape and yes eye...you will know and remember.
Bill S. You had better show me what a Janssen is supposed to look, feel, shape and eye look like. I have seen many and many are different; I personally think that is one greatness of the strain. The ability to change in mamny ways and still keep the strength and attitude for winning. But truly, there are many different types within the Janssens.
For David T. - I "know" there is no tell tale sign that a bird is of Janssen origon. Pedigree will be the only true way of identifying what anything in the racing pigeon game is. And that's only as good as the hand that wrote it. I think the genetic diversity is very important, not only in racing pigeons but, in all living things. It is part of evolution and we too are part of that.
Fellas,
That was my point exactly. We hit a point where they fail to resemble the old family and become our own - from the old Janssen line.
Jimmyoz
jimmyoz,
if you have back luck in the crossing over of the chromosomes, you might as well end up with a different family after only a few generations (with only a few % of the original line left) What i often hear when people are talking about a pigeon and his pedigree, is that they tend to place it in a certain strain that they pick for whatever reason (emotional,commercial, ...) even if the pedigree shows that there will be probably not much left of that strain in the actual pigeon...
Tom
SoFT FEATHERS,wedge shaped,Pearl {white eyes}unless theres much of the RED ones in the blood,Then the eyes come in many different colors.If your flying short sprint type races and are culling on that these janssens will stay as the originals were,But because everyones race distances AND different weather conditions as in winds these will change also.AS with every strain or pigeons.Just my opinion though..
Try this little test and see if it is true..go visit the fancier in your club with the smallest hands,then visit the fellow with the largest hands.I'll bet there will be a great diffence in the size of their birds.Try it.
Shobie, Bob is, as he says, a contridiction of your theory. Says no matter how long he holds that small wee wee in his hands it never gets any bigger. Lets race. Bye Billy
HAahahahaa.!!Remember he's the one that says size doesn't matter.I wonder if He's maybe heard that 1 or 2 too many times.
Now as one knows - or flipping should do - that birds, many generation down the line, can look to all sense and purpose exactly like the 'Champion' it has - supposedly - derived from! Two peas in a podd like! Indeed an whole loft can look like the original TWO that they supposedly represent and are bred down from. What I want to know, and have crystal clear light is this regard, 'When DOES the looks take over the performance'? For so many ... In my view, infact too many are fooled into thinking that it must be a throw back to the 'Great One' that they wish to but into!
Yet it is so easy to reproduce look - a - likes ... but performance a - likes is a different ball game I'd wager.
Now I know, as do many more, people of noted fame go to 'Sales' and purchase any thing that resembles the orginal of a certain 'Family / Strain that they - supposedly excel in!
Now think it through ''Even greats breed duds' and down the line much performance id lody - outside added vigour is needed. Me I'd never buy a bird that look great. just like it's fore fathers.......!
Well said Roly. I agree 100%. It's not a matter of looks. WE ARE NOT BREEDING SHOW BIRDS. It's performance performance performance. And the only easy way to keep that performance in a family without actually flying each bird to test it, is to learn the eye's of the original FOUNDATION and the performing birds down from them, and consentrate on reproducing each and the performance comes in automatically. There has never been a good bird with a bad eye.
If you breed correctly and to a proven program, you will produce breeders and flyers a plenty, but mainly flyers, and the only thing you then have to do, is recognize and hold back the best of the breeders for breeding, throw in the occasional outcross (as needed) and the rest is easy.
And the beat goes on. Good question Roly.
OK... good topic you guys! I have a question, I have a pair of birds that are half brother and half sister to each other they are both line bred Grand Children of MR. Aristona. I got them as late hatches in 2000, Last year I paired them together for the first time,They produced birds that were good flyers! 3 different birds from them were combine diploma winners no combine winners but close......I lost all 3 of them in a smash race at the end of last Years YB season. This season there are 5 YB from that pair,Now keeping in mind that there Sire was line bred on both sides and the hen of this Pair was line bred on her dams side to the same " Mr. Aristona" but her sire was a VanLoon, I wanna breed theesYB together and continue let there young cross keeping the blood close, Then determine over time wich of theese turn out to be good breeders and try and get 5 or 6 that perform consistantly,I also am in the process Of line breeding another family from a cock was a multi Combine winner for me here and all his wins were on very tough head wind days, I will breed him back to a YB hen of his from this year and then raise that family the same way as pair # .Then occasionally cross YB`s from Pair one to Pair 2 and eventually Pair 3 will be a family of the very best of both Line bred families! That will be it 3 familys of birds and will fly youngsters from theese pairs only, What do you guys think,I only know what I have read I look to you guys the ones that have done it and know!I do know that after flying now for 2 seasons its time to cut it back now to the very best and take my flying in a certain direction anyways that is my plan as I prepare for my 3rd YB season, I know this was hard to read the genetics part or at least it confuses me but thanks for sticking with it and give me your takes on it! Late Sarmy
You've got your act together Sarmy and I would advise you not to change anything you have planned. You're on the right track and a good future is something you can look forward to. Don't bring anymore birds in. Stay with what you have.
If I was to line breed Sarmy - which I never Do,,, infact just the dead opposite - I would do just about the same as you... and rely on - for the moment at least, the mixing in of the families you have, both pure and x's. But unlike Bob I would also be bringing in a family or two for the out crosses of your familes inside the loft.
I have advocate oh so may times that people think Line breeding means to keep throwing them back into the family. If, like you, you have the three main cores then you should MIX them in....... till eventuallly you have wittled them down till there is but only one family again........ But lol and behold, the wise fancier has ALREADY line bred a family or two on the side of PROVEN racer / breeders that WILL be used to re - vigourate the team.
BECAUSE Sarmy regardless of how good etc. sooner or later you WILL HAVE to have I.e out crosses or you will have to start another string from scrath if you are not careful!
Having them proven and ready is the way to go. If you can!
Roly,
Pertaining to the looks of a bird. Getting the same looking type birds comes from inbreeding/linebreeding because a breeder is intensifying the gene pool and eliminating diversity. Ability or hybrid vigor comes from outcrossing, they are opposites. There is always a chance that you will get good birds from inbreeding because the gene combos are there IF you have it to begin with, however after years of inbreeding, your stock would all look like they came from the same cookie cutter, however not many would perform in the tops. Then cross them on another inbred family and the flyer should get a majority of birds above average.
Termite
Think your missed the drift Termite.
To take a leaf out of twisted Tom's book 'I think the genetic diversity is very important'
I say again that when you see generations of the same looking bird CLONING the oringinal champion STAY clear. There are many thoughts to wonder about, not least why and how this came about! BUT THE end outcome is nigh a certainty THAT it is a SELLING point rather than a performance enhancing point. Regardless how one contrives to achieve this. Even via substuting birds for look alike reason... Unless the bird looks like a sparrow and has a job to fly across the loft... LEAVE well alone when requiring birds for their blood lines Termite. For it is stemmed in blood of which you want, nor is it genectically sound or safe to help bring about the desired effects you seek. PERFORMANCE enhancing factors.
Termite you can any day of the week BUY a look - a - like of any TOP bird you care too. Even obtain the pedigrees for such. Place a photo of the one you have just bought against the original bird and YOU couldn't/wouldn't be able to tell the difference... That's another fact and one that should always be remembered when seeing 'Throw Backs' etc.
Mind I haven't ever seen a Clone of a champion BRED directly from it yet! I doubt very much if they actually exist. Yes close simualities I grant you, never a double though yet!
Great G.G. children yes I have seen pretty close, closer indeed than the immediate sons and that's a fact!
Yea, your right. No breeder can get an exact look-alike the parent because there are two of them and they both make up the offspring. As far as buying pigeons goes, I agree with you for the most part except one. An inbred look-alike to a champion may not perform well in the basket (i.e. win races) however it may make an excellent breeder. Pedigrees are only as good as the man that gives them to you, I don't put any stock in them unless it is from a friend expecialy if I had to pay for it. I understand what you are saying, I think I missed the fact that your question was retorical.
Mark
'make an excellent breeder' that goes with out saying. But if a bit down the road like.... then the only blood that is genuine and worthwhile from that sauce is when the poor blumming sparrow looking thing can mate and lay eggs like...But not a lot more than that.... Better to put them eggs out to foster parents too!
Hi Sarmy. Remember, inbreeding (including linebreeding) is intended to fix characteristics. It will not improve what you start with. The Old Merckx bred the 019, 20 times 1st, the young Merckx, 21 times 1st, the Velo, multiple wins and sire to a 1st National winner (Klak Velo) and multiple other champions. In my opinion a bird worthy of line breeding to with the intent of breeding more like him. Your bird has bred 3 birds with zero wins but a few combine diplomas. Remembering that inbreeding fixes traits, does not improve on them, are you sure you want to line breed to that bird?
Hi Termite
You wrote "however not many would perform in the tops. Then cross them on another inbred family and the flyer should get a majority of birds above average."
As I have discussed on this site several times in the past, I believe that your statement is completely false and very harmful to the sport in that it can send fanciers down a dead end road where they waste years developing these two inbred families and when the anticipated results fail to materialize, they get discouraged and quit or worse are condemned to a life time of mediocore results. I have asked those making this claim previously to prove me wrong with even one example of where two unrelated highly inbred racing pigeon families were crossed and the resulting offspring out performed either of the two original families. I am still awaiting this evidence. What are you basing this statement on? I would appreciate seeing your evidence, and heresay is meaningless.
Your comment about pedigrees also strikes me as odd. A pedigree is nothing more than a record of a birds ancestors. Are you saying that it is worthless to keep breeding records, or that you consider the vast majority of pigeon fanciers to be blatent lairs?
Mike I could blow your argument out of the water with my own ex family and how it was originally bred. The blandens were an inbred family and were very succesful, however, when they were later crossed with another family called the Fords, the record books of both families were re-written by and for both owners, and that was 40+ years ago, but they are still winning to this day, and beating the fancy pedigreed imports as often as they get beaten.
Sorry Mike but that's also how many many English and European Champions were bred, by outcrossing two inbred or line bred families. It's the shortest way to winning that there is.
Roly, I used to breed both families in the same loft and fly both together to assure that one was not carrying the other. This gave me an ample supply of crosses to call on when ever needed.
The problem with the technique is that people don't know how to do it properly and loose patience and interest trying, mainly because of the errors that occure if it's not done correctly. But that's not a fault of the technique but more so the program being used.
Mike, I know this is so because that's how I bred my own family of Blanden Ford crosses. The same thing is also working here today in California for my close friend Cal Calabrese. But of course that's heresay what????? 
Hi Bob. Yes, you have told me this before, although you are getting a little more specific this time. I am not making an argument, I am just asking for a documented example. Last time you claimed you were too busy on other things to look up the proof, which was quite understandable as I think you were having some real personal health issues at that time. If you recall, I asked you to post three generations on each side showing the inbreding on each side and include the race records of each bird. If you can show me this and the youngsters resulting in the first cross did indeed out fly any of the ancestors on either side than that is proof. Telling me that many of the old English families were developed that way is hearsay.
HA HA Are you sure you're name isn't Lucas. I don't have that information anymore Mike and getting it these day's would be almost impossible. Bear in mind also that the guys who gave me my foundation birds were better flyers than I ever was or will be, so although the improvements may well have been there that's also unprovable.
Cal on the other hand is a different story all together, but I must confess that, his way of doing things and mine are different in as much as he uses many more crosses than I ever did or would. So I guess we are stuck here. maybe one of the readers will take it up.
Did you see the new's about the AU and IF and what they are doing about Newcastles. Think maybe we had something to do with it????????? Who knows? I sure did sound off about it though didn't I?
Mike,
I have not been into THIS sport for that long, however I have bred chickens for almost 20 years and can attest from personal experience that inbred families give outstanding hybrid vigor and performance (when crossed). In addition, I have read more than one article in the Racing pigeon journal by master breeders who have basicaly said the exact same thing. I'll try and look some of them up for you.
I'm not saying that you will get winners every time, that would be obsurd (you must find two families that click or blend well). However you will get better performance from outcrossing than heavy inbreeding. This is also a breeding program that can take years to begin to understand, if a person ventures to take on such a task they should (in my opinion) be ready to breed for a minimum of twenty years to achive success with it. Not for the weak at heart and not to be done in a year or two by a beginner. I don't believe a novice can take any two related birds and start a faimily with them. If a person is more interested in flying than breeding their own line then they should just buy a bunch of good birds and let them breed the way they want, then they will be getting the performance they desire and not the work of setting up a family. Look at the Houbens, they have been breed from two generations now, not to mention the years they were bred by the Jansen family before Houbens accuired stock.
As for the pedigree, yes, I'm saying that if a guy is charging big bucks for a bird (or dog, or any other animal) They are suspect to be blatant liers. I have seen people from dog breeders, horse breeders, and chicken breeders tell someone this is such and such. When in fact I knew it was not. When money is involved I trust very few. ( I come from a very sheltered background and have been burned a number of times) Now that does not mean that there are not honest pigeon flyers out there, just means I don't trust them, even if they are honest they must prove it.
Mark
WOW. Termite I'm impressed. Right on Babe.
Thanks for the feed back you guys! Termite I have flown 40 races to date...... I have 11 club victories and 4 combine victory`s, You have not flown one race yet! So under what criteria do you base your statement as to what a novice can or can not do, Yep I`m pretty new at this game as well but I suggest you fly a season or two and then decide for yourself what you think YOU can or can`t do until that time I suggest you gather as much information as you can from where ever you can and test it in your own loft,and leave the dispensing of advice to theese guys here who have been there and done that! I post my results every week while racing, win or lose with out fail with no whining so you will be able to see what I can or can`t do ! Late Sarmy
Hey knock it off you guy's, you're starting to sound like those eye-sign charachters going at it. I want you to be peacefull and quiet. Termite you be peacefull, and Sarmy you be quiet. OK guy's ???? keep the beat going.
But going back a piece here on a more serious note, I feel Mikev was very close to nut shelling this Line / Inbreeding thing ... 'inbreeding (including linebreeding) is intended to fix characteristics. It will not improve what you start with... BUT. BUT HERE IS THE GIST! GET this, this here is a thought! I suggest that ' EACH and EVERY Champion was better that it's parents'!!! Well thing on NOT evry 'Champion' by a long chalk is / was bred from 'Champion Stock! Also ALL. Take the Jansenn Brothers OUT crosses were constantly added. - Though how they ever line bred / inbred I'll never know as the ole man was dead set against anything he didn't consider natural.. even 'Widowerhood' was taboo and not allowed.. till after hi death...???
Now think on 'Hammer the breeding of 'Birds you Want' then quickly outcross.
Mikev every bird I have is nigh an out cross.......but then I aren't a great flyer, But Line breeding herre is I suggest very much over exaggerated. More for the fools and Followers. The Good flyers I know personally are for ever travelling and borrowing, leand. sometime even buying birds, FROM all over the continent and of course here.
I have a mate, whom Bill B. may well be able to visit with me, he's only 70 miles up he road from me, who must have a airvery od over 200 birds alone that he has bought. Class stuff, Birds he has ever confidence that they will / could bred the goods.. but they - and many more - have never ever even been bred from. nor of course race via him as he bought them from Belguim like. Yet 4/5 time he is in Belguim etc. and still buying MORE birds. Just how much 'Line and Inbreeding do you think this man and his mate really do?
Maybe I do well at distance racing because I never line breed / inbreed.. or is IT I don't bother to race many short races........
Missed Thurso this week....... Didn't get to toss them but unfortunaely I just didn't have the time. Still have Dax, Pau, Bergerac etc. to have a go at if I get me arse into geah.
Sarmy,
As with everything that I post, the rules of genetics that I wrote above are general and apply to every animal. As with every rule there are exceptions, you may be one of them as far as breeders go.
This is what I said about beginners:
" Not for the weak at heart and not to be done in a year or two by a beginner. I don't believe a novice can take any two related birds and start a faimily with them."
Where did I say that a beginner can't win??????? (read it close now) What I said is it is obsurd for a beginner to expect to build two inbred families that cross sucessfully on each other in a year or two. Have you done this? If you have a congradulate you as you will have a very lucrative future in the genetics field and pigeon flying/breeding.
Also just for the record I mention often that I'm new and don't know much about pigeon racing.
Furthermore, my explainations are not an attack on Mike, beginners, or anyone else, just information plain and simple. This is my first year racing and there is no doubt that I'll be lucky to get a bird in the top 10%. Even if I do win this year or for the next couple of years that will not be a reflection on my breeding, it will still reflect on the breeders I obtained birds from! After five or so years my handy work will start to show. That don't change the facts about genetics and breeding.
Here is a snipit of an article from RPD April 1st 2003, vol 12 issue 1, page 26 "Crazy As Christeleit : Fast starter.
"I do just like Campbell. I line breed successful families of pigeons I buy from Europe, and CROSS them out to race.
Americans figure if they go to Cal. and pay ten G's for the cock that wins the snowbird, they they go to the east coast and pay ten grand fot the hen that because they have two champians and are mating them best to best they are going to get super champion pigeons. That is BS, Nothing is further from the truth. All you get is a hybrid.
When they tell you in Europe that they breed the best to the best. It confuses Americans. What they realy mean is mate the best of a successful linebred family to the best of another successful linebred family."
I just re-typed the whole passage so you all didn't have to look it up. No one can argue with this guys success.
Mark
Mark. I gave that very same advise in my book back in 1976. And have recommended it in every seminar I have given since then. It's the only short cut to the top in this game and "especially" if you know the subject of eye-sign. As far as beginners go, I have seen so many examples of beginners luck you would not believe me if I told you. It is real and you can count on it. But don't make the same mistake that so many do, and slack off after winning a few races thinking you have it all down pat.
It's all those little things you do when you are new and enthusiastic that make the difference on race day. For every one you stop doing because you think it will wait till later or tomorrow, you just added a minute to your next weeks flying time.
I would recommend to anyone interested in breeding and creating a family of their own to start with the most proven and very best birds you can find and afford, and work from there.
Starting from the bottom with other peoples cast off's is nigh impossible, even for the most skilfull breeders. Any claims that this was done are false and meant only to sell something. That's a fact. A cull is a cull is a cull.
I also don't like assessing birds by the percentages of their finishing performances in races. Finishing in the top 10 or 20% is meaningless to me and should be to you also.
Take the guy who fly's against 2000 birds weekly and only keeps birds that finish in better than the first 10%. Are these good birds? In 2000 that's 200th position. Not to me they ain't. I don't believe in keeping any ex race bird that never made it to the top 3 or 5% and even this has to be looked at closely, they are still losers and a consistant loser is just that. We don't need homing pigeons, racing pigeons is the name of the game.
To some it may sound hard and heartless but, we have to look at flying pigeons in the same light as running a business. Your coop is not a rest home for geriatrics, it's a racing stable, and they must earn their keep or they're out.
You can fill your loft up in less than 3 years by feeling sorry for the dud's and making excuses for them, but eventually you will have to ask yourself the old old question, why am I keeping them all. Am I a pigeon flyer or a pigeon keeper. But now comes the question that only certain people can answer, which ones to cull and which to keep.
If you don't know the answer to this problem, and you cull all of these birds, you just might be culling the best breeder you will ever own. So for both of your sakes, at least learn the basics of the eye-sign subject which will get you through the rough spots. Most of my top breeders never raced a lick. They were selected as babies by their eye's and retained for stock. There's more to this thing than just winning races but winning is the bottom line.
Remember what Old Charlie said. Only one man in 10,000 will make a good pigeon breeder. IF HE'S LUCKY AND DEDICATES HIS LIFE TO IT.
It takes a genius to improve on the best, and there ain't too many of them in the pigeon world.
tHERE'S ME AND rOLY and!@#$%^&*( AND ?????????????????????????????
Hi Termite. First and foremost, I have never taken one of your comments as an attack or insult and have never intend one of mine in that way. I consider we are exchanging views trying to learn. I believe that is your postion as well.
In that spirit, I take exception to several things that you have written above.
#1. I have been to the Houbens lofts and examined many of their birds. As I believe you have accurately stated, inbreding and particularly line breeding, does produce, over time, very similar phenotypes, physical peas in the pod. I saw no evidence of this at Houbens. Every bird was distinctive. There was wide variation within their flock, leading me to believe that they do not inbred extensively and certainly do not maintain a pure inbred family, never mind two. Also, Janssens Bros. Arendonk does not form the basis of the Houben family. Houbens family is as old as the modern (post WWII) Janssens. They share some common roots.
#2. Your experience with Chicken breeding is totally irrelevent to this discussion. I am quite aware that certain general principles of genetics apply across species, but we are not talking about general principles, we are taking about winning pigeon races or breeding winners of pigeon races, not winning in a show cage or winning a chicken fight. Your argument is like the earlier discussion on this site about hawks catching only the dummies. Just because a bird is good at avoiding hawks around the loft does not translate into it being a good racer. We are talking apples to oranges.
#3. Whenever I push one of these "master breeders" that make this two inbred family claim I get an answer very similar to the one Bob Flemming posted about. Read his response very carefully, it will tell you a lot more than what is written.
#4. Crazy Al is a novice pigeon flyer. He has bred many good futurity birds, almost all from direct imports or one generation removed from direct imports. The source lofts of his birds, Silvere Toye, etc all outcross extensively. Check the pedigrees of his winning birds and you will see that his statement above is very misleading. Since you are a very mistrusting individual, why are you believing him when you can look it up for yourself, or pick up the phone and give him a call. Ask him for specifics and listen to him start to back pedal, or get very defensive.
#5. I do know something of Campbell Strange, his birds and his methods, having visited his lofts several times. What Crazy Al is claiming about him is so far off it should take you all of 5 minutes to completely disprove it. Campbell's key breeders were outcross (Super 73 was a four way cross) and his best racers were outcrosses breed from out crosses. Don't believe me, look it up. All the evidence is readily available.
#6. What if I am right and you are wrong. You have just stated that your method of inbreding two families and than crossing to get the champs will take 20 years. What if you are wrong. What if you have been sucked in by all this advise about something that sounds right so must be right but the facts don't support it. You have wasted 20 years for nothing. Be very, very sure of your "facts" before commiting to this approach.
Very sound comments mike, True on the campbell birds i have some and yes outcrosses in them all.bill butterfield
Mike,
Yep, we are on the same track, I was letting Sarmy know that I was not trying to persuade anyone anyone just chiming in on a topic that I do know something about, genetics.
It seems interesting what you are saying about Houbens loft, in a recent article one of them states directly that a lot of their family is heavily inbred back to a certain cock. I'm trying to find it...I'll let you know when I do.
As far as your statement about "what if you are right?" I never put all my eggs in one basket! LOL. That is how one loses everything they work for.
Mark
Well finally back. Thought Jim the Mag had given me the boot. Enjoyed Booth and Jan visit at NO. Vanderpluckers were shut out. Most still under the bridge. BoBo answer me a question and you too Termite. The chicken and show pigeon bird people can bread any confirmation or special color classes they want to and there are many books and articles telling them how to do it. Why cant our eyesign gurus do the same and breed their lying 9s and sparkles, etc on an ABCD basis and therefore dominate in racing, DUH. Just a matter of genitics. Lets race. Bye BillyT
I can answer that easily enough Billy. In an established family with a strong gene pool, we can breed the desired type of body wing and eye, even performance ability almost everytime.
Amongst these eyes there will be a variety of the three standard types of eyes together with a small sprinkling of the rarer types including the Clusters and Champions etc.
In the ordinary suburban hobbyists loft, which is usually made up of a hudge podge of all breeds of racing birds, which when mated together because of pedigrees or race performances etc, the variables are impossible to calculate, and a small insight of this figure is denoted in the multitude of different kinds of eyes bred in such a loft. (a graders nightmare) These many many varieties of eyes are only a small number of the actual recessive traits that each mating releases in the young offspring. This is mainly and especially true in out crosses.
Some of these newly released but previously "dormant" traits are for the better as in Champions, most of which are bred this way, and some are not so good. This is when the eye can be used most effectively to recognise them for what they are "AFTER" they are born, but NOT before that.
There is no Definate way to predict with any real accuracy what kind of eyes will come from 99% of pairings, except that there will be the three recognized catagories of eye's amongst them.
Even if there was a way to garantee that every bird would have a Single Tubed Smash eye Billy, eye-sign gives no garantee that such birds will "dominate" in competition JUST BECAUSE OF IT'S EYE, even though the best Racing eyes do dominate. They still have to be managed correctly. Eye-sign doesn't alleviate the need for good management skills. Many people make that same mistake when critiqing this subject.
EYE-SIGN ALONE DOESN'T WIN RACES. And "NOBODY" who really knows the subject ever said that it does. All it ever promises to do and ever will, is to give you better quality birds with which to compete. The rest is still upto you!!!
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A GOOD BIRD WITH A BAD EYE. So if you put a good manager in charge of a team of top pigeons, which because they are top birds, will automatically have good eyes, you better get ready for an ass kicking. Got doubts? Let's use your area Texas. Remember Lonny Crawford??? That was the winning combination there with him. Now, Try to find me a proven good bird with a bad eye, bet you can't??? Welcome home.
Billy..bet you thought you were going to get a simple answer..lol..he has been waiting for your return..welcome back
Quote:These many many varieties of eyes are only a small number of the actual recessive traits that each mating releases in the young offspring. This is mainly and especially true in out crosses.
I would think that by outcrossing, many dominant genes would prevail, with some recessive traits appearing;whereas through inbreeding or breeding within a family, greater concentrations of recessive traits would be expressed???
Hey Pigeon Pete. I was getting worried about you, Glad you're OK.
Uniformity in a family of anything, comes from breeding and consentrating on certain visible charachteristics and types. In our birds this also includes their eyes.
The features we strive to duplicate from our good birds are therefore the dominant ones. And the best way to alter the uniformity of any established family type, is to outcross it. Look at any mongrel such as racing bird crossed with a fan tail. This then makes the progeny "outcrosses" but not hybrids. A mistake I made on here not long back by calling them by that wrong name. Hybrids come from the crossing of two different species. The TIGON and LYGER for eg.
It is ironic that although this is also right in pigeons, these outcrosses of race birds to unrelated other race birds do inherit (for the want of the correct name) VIGOR. ZEST FOR FLYING. ZIP AND ZING. ROCKET POWER. OR. A KIND OF HYBRID VIGOR????? Darn it, you know what I mean.
Now I will disclose something from my revised new book notes which I have never divulged before.
Those who are familliar with my teachings over the years will confirm that I have always advised to "CONTRAST" the eye colours and other eye features of your breeding birds.
That word and the subject of eye-sign itself I have said is the key to breeding better birds from the best.
The answer as to why I advise this is simply because from my own personal experience and that of many hundreds of thousands of others throughout the world and over the years is that, CONTRASTING the eyes acts in almost the same way as outcrossing with fresh blood does but, it does NOT have the CONFIRMATION AND WING altering effects that direct outcrossing of other unrelated strains of race birds does.
Even the most ardent none believers of eye-sign will agree that their best birds have and are produced from pairs with Contrasted eye colours but, they don't know or understand why??? Now they will. All because of you Pete. Are you sure you ain't Pigeon Brien.
Hope this answers your question and thanks for asking. Glad you're OK.
Quote:Uniformity in a family of anything, comes from breeding and consentrating on certain visible charachteristics and types. In our birds this also includes their eyes.
The features we strive to duplicate from our good birds are therefore the dominant ones. And the best way to alter the uniformity of any established family type, is to outcross it.
When you say we strive to duplicate dominant features in our birds, this shouldn't be such a challenge, as dominant traits are visible immediately or perhaps shortly, where performance is concerned. Do you mean we strive to fix or make certain characteristics a dominant feature within a family of birds??? I have always bred contrasting eye colours as you suggest, Mr.E. Would you say that yellow to pearl tends to kick up a smaller percentage of recessive traits, whereas pearl to pearl has a greater tendency to concentrate recessive traits???
That last little question you asked is exactly what I'm saying Pete. Use the contrast in the eye colors as being like an outcross of sorts. Contrasting means, The bringing together of two opposits.
Yellow to pearl gives you a wider variety and more usefull assortment of eye's and even body and wing types with which to work however, Two pearls mated together does tend to standardize the types of birds being bred.
In many families, the link between performance and eye color and or feather color, is also one that can be learned by the person who is on the ball and not the pot.
Mreyesign & Co.
Variety is the spice of life. Even the Janssens new that. Too alike = too close.
Jimmyoz
(quiet of late)
Oh how true Jimmy ... THATS why even Cobblers from the land of Oz are allowed here! .... Well obviously wasn't for their intellectual let alone any fundemental knowledge now was! AND diffinately not fer their Sportmanship and that's a fact lol...
Ah Roly,
Ozzy's are great sports!!!!! Sport is about winning. No 'b' ever was remembered fondly for coming second. Intellect. My IQ is 160+ , What's yours?
Jimmyoz
IQ 160 EH ! mine ent much above yours then.. yes I agree that B'S are also rans....... but they put every bit as much hard work and effort into it as the winner lioke !!!!
So for that on the immediate time etc. they warrent appraisal and respect.....!
Roly,
You pommies are getting soft. No wonder you lost the empire.
Nah. not quite like that really now was it.... nothing left worthwhile having, and mostly not the kind(now!) to be assoicaited with - they can't even spell most of them lol
Cant say I believe the British lost their empire, more likely backed off and left the Yahoos to their own devises. See what they get gay marriages and endangered species. Lets race. Bye BillyuT
More like an UN inflicted divorce. Mind you the Indians, Paki's, Ugandans etc are free to commit genocide.
Sent private answers....... heard the Ciu / and tree huggers were out in force ... so postone answer indefinately....lol
So if 'Cloning of the Traits / look - a- like don't do the buisness . Why!!! Because they need OUT CROSSES.
Like I keep smalting on ..... ONE breed, whether by 'Bull System' or no STACKS off so and so and such and such a pair .... I bet they only shine when aIntroduction has occurred. It id imparative .
Roly has a point. If you do not bring in out crosses every year your pigeons will get smaller and smaller. Performance may not decrease much, but your performance at the distance will detreriate over time as will the health of your flock. Only have to look at the wild bunch down at the KMart parking lot. Mostly dark in color and all look the same. Survival is guaranteed, but they only have to fly to the Shell Station roof. Lets race. Bye BillyT
Billy,
Classic point! We had no imports in Oz (legally)for 40 odd years. The outcrosses have improved the velocities no-end. The old birds got very small indeed.
Jimmyoz